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Darwin and murder

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Bruce Wayne

Player Valuation: £100m
We've had a few topics recently about murder, the causes for it and the possible punishments.

I read an interesting piece today that basically suggested that murder throughout the world follows the same basic pattern, ie that it is committed by young men on other young men.

The research suggested that because most murders are performed by unemployed and/or uneducated young men that these acts are simply Darwin in action, either by trying to impress a girl explicitely, or attaining status within their peer group.

Darwinian answers to social questions | Why we are, as we are | The Economist is the article for those that wish to read it.

That crime is selfish is hardly news. But the idea that criminal behaviour is an evolved response to circumstances sounds shocking. It calls into question the moral explanation that crime is done by “bad people”. Yet that explanation is itself susceptible to Darwinian analysis: evolution probably explains why certain behaviours are deemed worthy of punishment.
The study of the evolutionary roots of crime began with the work of Martin Daly and Margo Wilson, a married couple who work at McMaster University in Canada. They looked at what is usually regarded as the most serious crime of all, murder.
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That murderers are usually young men is well known, but Dr Daly and Dr Wilson dug a bit deeper. They discovered that although the murder rate varies from place to place, the pattern does not. Plot the rate against the age of the perpetrator and the peak is the same (see chart). Moreover, the pattern of the victims is similar. They, too, are mostly young men. In the original study, 86% of the victims of male killers aged between 15 and 19 were also male. This is the clue as to what is going on. Most violence (and thus most murder, which is simply violence’s most extreme expression) is a consequence of competition between young, unemployed, unmarried men. In the view of Darwinists, these men are either competing for women directly (“You looking at my girl, Jimmy?”) or competing for status (“You dissing me, man?”).
This is not to deny that crimes of violence are often crimes of poverty (for which read low status). But that is precisely what Darwinism would predict. There is no need to invoke the idea that people are “born criminal”. All that is required is the evolution of enough behavioural flexibility to respond appropriately when violence is (or would have been, in the evolutionary past) an appropriate response.
Crime…

An evolutionary analysis explains many things about crime (and not just murder)—particularly why most criminals are males of low status. A woman will rarely have difficulty finding a mate, even if he does not measure up to all her lofty ideals. In the world of Moulay Ismail the Bloodthirsty, however, a low-status man may be cast on the reproductive scrap heap because there are no women available to him at all. Though the world in which humanity evolved was nowhere near as polygamous as Moulay Ismail’s, neither did it resemble the modern one of monogamous marriage, which distributes women widely. In those circumstances, if the alternative was reproductive failure, risking the consequences of violence may have been are worth the gamble—and instincts will have evolved accordingly.
For similar reasons, it is no surprise to Darwinists that those who rape strangers are also men of low status. Oddly, considering it is an act that might result in a child, the idea that rape is an evolved behaviour is even more controversial than the Darwinian explanation of murder. Randy Thornhill of the University of New Mexico, who proposed it on the basis of criminal data and by comparing people with other species, was excoriated by feminists who felt he was somehow excusing the crime. On the other hand, it has become a mantra among some feminists that all men are rapists, which sounds a lot like the opposite point of view: biological determinism. Insert the word “potential”, however, and this claim is probably true. To a Darwinist, the most common form of forced mating, so-called date rape, which occurs in an already charged sexual environment, looks a lot like an adaptive response. Men who engage in it are likely to have more offspring than those who do not. If a genetic disposition for men to force their attentions on women in this way does exist, it would inevitably spread.
Sexual success, by contrast, tends to dampen criminal behaviour down. Getting married and having children—in other words, achieving at least part of his Darwinian ambition—often terminates a criminal’s career. Again, that is a commonplace observation. However, it tends to be explained as “the calming influence of marriage”, which is not really an explanation at all. “Ambition fulfilled” is a better one.
Illustration by Noma Bar
dar.jpg

The murder of children, too, can be explained evolutionarily. On the face of things it makes no sense to kill the vessels carrying your genes into the next generation. And, indeed, that is not what usually happens. But sociologists failed to notice this. It was not until Dr Daly and Dr Wilson began researching the field that it was discovered that a child under five is many times more likely to die an unnatural death in a household with a stepfather present (whether or not that relationship has been formalised by law) than if only biological parents are there.
In this, humans follow a pattern that is widespread in mammals: male hostility to a female’s offspring from previous matings. In some species, such as lions and langurs, this results in deliberate infanticide. In humans things not are always as brutal and explicit. But neglect and a low threshold of irritation at the demands of a dependent non-relative can have the same effect.
Intriguingly, though, if a genetic parent is the killer it is often the mother. Infanticidal mothers are usually young. A young mother has many years of potential reproduction ahead of her. If circumstances do not favour her at the time (perhaps the father has deserted her) the cost to her total reproductive output of bringing up a child may exceed the risk of killing it. Not surprisingly, maternal infanticide is mainly a crime of poor, single women.
Many people might sympathise with those driven to commit this particular form of homicide. But in general crimes such as murder and rape provoke a desire to punish the perpetrators, not to forgive them. That, too, is probably an evolved response—and it may well be a uniquely human one. No court sits in judgment over a drake who has raped a duck. A lioness may try to defend her cubs against infanticide, but if she fails she does not plan vengeance against the male who did it. Instead, she usually has sex with him. Yet ideas of revenge and punishment lie deep in the human psyche.

Above is the relevant bit on crime, but the rest is interesting and well worth a read. Interestingly it does seem to fit both crimes like baby P and Jamie Bulger.

Seems like a natural response to a nurtural predicament.
 
Its sad that the England and Wales numbers are measured in the 10s while just 1 CITY in the US is measured in the hundreds.
 
Its sad that the England and Wales numbers are measured in the 10s while just 1 CITY in the US is measured in the hundreds.

To be fair, the figures are proportions per capita, not instances of murder, but it does show a far higher frequency in Chicago. (You could also argue that the England and Wales figures would be higher if they only included results from large urban conurbations with similar demographics and socio-political issues as experienced in Chicago, or indeed large cities the world over).

It's a valid point though, in many cases these people have very little going for them, nothing in the way of status, so they set about achieving status in anyway they can. Gang violence is one way in which a local hierarchy can be established and local status gained.

Which brings us to 2 points:

As these people almost by definition have no discernable qualities that would contribute to society, is there any logical (note, not moral or ethical) reason to keep them around once they've commited their crimes?

What could be done to raise the self esteem and prospects of these individuals to give them something else, some other hierarchy, some other way to prove their worth. My innate bias towards National Service would show through here, but some of these scrotes are too young.
 
Ah, testosterone - a wonderful servant but a wicked master.:@



yank it out of baby boys when they're born and give it back to them when they've grown up ....



joke boys, joke:P
 

great thread, and i hadn't known about that. the rape part was also somewhat intriguing.

so where do you believe then that human sexual hangups come from? is that also an evolutionary feature, or is it the product of living in society that essentially seeks to defy our evolutionary urges.

Paul McCartney wrote the song "why don't we do it in the road" after he observed two monkeys copulating on the street in India, and he was amazed by the simplicity of the interaction. My question really, is what makes sex more complicated for human beings, i'm curious whether its simply because every other part of our lives is more complicated as well, or maybe humans evolved to maintain a higher degree of emotion. This specific emotion could be what helped instill the pack mentality that helped early humanoids survive (and that still often manifests itself in mob mentality)
 

Seriously expected this thread to be about some spate of horrible killings in Northern Australia...

But anyways...

Seems to me that enforced castration (chemical or physical) should be brought in on a larger scale as punishment. As noted above by Gordon, the relevant criminals aren't exactly going to be sorely missed from the world's gene pool if we manage to prevent them reproducing.

Win-win : no risk of next generation rapists/murderers and a massively decreased risk of re-offence by the original - plus, could be released from prison much sooner to lower the gov't spending on keeping them locked up.

It's something we've done since before the Romans and we continue to see it as allowable for 'man's best friend' - just to stop a little wee on the carpet. These people deprive others of basic human rights or even their lifes, being deprived the right to reproduce is hardly inhumane in comparison.

Even knowing that it was a more widely utilised form of punishment, may in fact prove a very effective deterent in the 1st place.
 
What would society do without a clear and present underclass?

The jeremy kyle generation take this mantle, and it protects the decision makers at the top.
 
Seriously expected this thread to be about some spate of horrible killings in Northern Australia...

But anyways...

Seems to me that enforced castration (chemical or physical) should be brought in on a larger scale as punishment. As noted above by Gordon, the relevant criminals aren't exactly going to be sorely missed from the world's gene pool if we manage to prevent them reproducing.

Win-win : no risk of next generation rapists/murderers and a massively decreased risk of re-offence by the original - plus, could be released from prison much sooner to lower the gov't spending on keeping them locked up.

It's something we've done since before the Romans and we continue to see it as allowable for 'man's best friend' - just to stop a little wee on the carpet. These people deprive others of basic human rights or even their lifes, being deprived the right to reproduce is hardly inhumane in comparison.

Even knowing that it was a more widely utilised form of punishment, may in fact prove a very effective deterent in the 1st place.

It's certainly one solution, and perhaps a rethink of society's legal, moral and ethical standards is required.
One note of caution, however, how long would you wait after conviction to carry out the surgery? You'd certainly have to wait until all appeals had been exhausted.
One crime that is on the increase is the false accusation of rape. It's all very well to release someone after they've spent a year inside for something they didn't do, but another to have to sow back on their todger.
In fact, a change in the law would perhaps lead to an increase in malicious false accusations in light of the more harrowing punishment.
Follow this through to it's logical conclusion and you may actually have more actual rapists getting off, due to aspersions being cast as to the motives of the complainant.
It's a bugger because looked at logically, for society to become fitter it could be argued that some, more final, solutions need to be applied for those who do not contribute and only ever seem to appear on the debit side of the balance sheet. But that's where pure logic without humanity gets you, I'm sure final solutions seemed logical 65 odd years ago too, but they were no more right then either.

One of life's thorny little dilemmas...
 
It's certainly one solution, and perhaps a rethink of society's legal, moral and ethical standards is required.
One note of caution, however, how long would you wait after conviction to carry out the surgery? You'd certainly have to wait until all appeals had been exhausted.
One crime that is on the increase is the false accusation of rape. It's all very well to release someone after they've spent a year inside for something they didn't do, but another to have to sow back on their todger.
In fact, a change in the law would perhaps lead to an increase in malicious false accusations in light of the more harrowing punishment.
Follow this through to it's logical conclusion and you may actually have more actual rapists getting off, due to aspersions being cast as to the motives of the complainant.
It's a bugger because looked at logically, for society to become fitter it could be argued that some, more final, solutions need to be applied for those who do not contribute and only ever seem to appear on the debit side of the balance sheet. But that's where pure logic without humanity gets you, I'm sure final solutions seemed logical 65 odd years ago too, but they were no more right then either.

One of life's thorny little dilemmas...

Personally speaking, I find the comparison of jews with rapists a very nasty one, and one I am repulsed by.

That is not to say that I am onside with false testimony convicting innocent men of rape, but in cases where they are/were executed, the individuals responsible for the convicting evidence would get the sentence they secured for the victim. responsibility is the word.
 
Personally speaking, I find the comparison of jews with rapists a very nasty one, and one I am repulsed by.

That is not to say that I am onside with false testimony convicting innocent men of rape, but in cases where they are/were executed, the individuals responsible for the convicting evidence would get the sentence they secured for the victim. responsibility is the word.

Firstly, there was no comparison and obviously there never would be.

The point was where do you draw the line? What crimes would merit a capital or amputative punishment, and what mitigations would excuse it? What would the burden of proof be? If it were to be made a valid deterrent, the punishment would have to be seen to be done, but would this mean corners having to be cut in the inevitably lengthy appeals processes.. would we be faced with a "todger's death row" akin to DR in the states where people die of old age before they can be put to death?

What I'm saying is, it's all very well having these fundamental punishments, but if you want to make them work in the real world, maybe the mask has to slip a little, and is that something we really want?

The next injustice could be you, or me...
 

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