Democracy improved? Aussies and Kiwis - input please

[CanadaToffee]

In less than 2 weeks we here in Ontario Canada vote in a referendum on a proposal to change our system of electing our provincial government.

Currently we have the same first-past-the-post (or "Westminster") system as our federal government, and in the U.K, etc. The proposal is to move to something called "Mixed Member Proportional". Without getting too technical, it's a kind of hybrid system, part the same as at present, part proportional representation.

I understand a very similar system has been in operation in NZ for some time, and that in one or more of the Oz territories you have another variation on the theme (STV?). So my question is: what has your experience been under these systems, versus the (for us) status quo?

 

[little curly alan ball]

stv

would that be the single transferrable vote method ?? sort of a second best pick if yours gets whalloped ?? nice one

 

[chicoazul]

They're gash.

This concludes the discussion.

 

[Ct jr.]

No one needs, to vote the Ultras are always in command.
*pulls out flare, tosses smoke grenades into baskets

 

[monty]

No one needs, to vote the Ultras are always in command.
*pulls out flare, tosses smoke grenades into baskets

Sonny, your dad is trying to be serious here, go and stand in that corner for a few days and calm down:angry:

 

[CanadaToffee]

would that be the single transferrable vote method ?? sort of a second best pick if yours gets whalloped ?? nice one

No, although that's the system I'd prefer. This MMP basically elects around 70% of the seats usng the traditional first-past-post method, and the rest on a proportional basis from party lists. So if this system is implemented, then on each ballot we'd have 2 votes: for a candidate in our riding (constituency), and for a party.

 

[little curly alan ball]

No, although that's the system I'd prefer. This MMP basically elects around 70% of the seats usng the traditional first-past-post method, and the rest on a proportional basis from party lists. So if this system is implemented, then on each ballot we'd have 2 votes: for a candidate in our riding (constituency), and for a party.

oh , ok . hope it works out for you . tho politicians , and their inherently self - perpetuating systems are all corrupt . thats my feeling anyway . lcab

 

[atrottel]

No, although that's the system I'd prefer. This MMP basically elects around 70% of the seats usng the traditional first-past-post method, and the rest on a proportional basis from party lists. So if this system is implemented, then on each ballot we'd have 2 votes: for a candidate in our riding (constituency), and for a party.

Yeah, this is similar to what they have in some European countries. The problem is (from a traditional constituency first-past-the-post perspective) that a) it places heavy patronage power in the hands of party apparatchniks (although one could argue that it is there anyway no matter what system, and b ) there is no local/regional obligation/responsibility on behalf of the list members.

I don't like proportional representation because it's confused with increased democracy. In fact, there is no democracy while there is no accountability from politicians in general.

In that case I would rather have a clear-cut winner or loser than the power-sharing and corruption that develop in coalition-governed countries. At least the bastards on one side have the bastards on the other to keep them halfway honest.

 

[Ct jr.]

The problem with with the current system here is that you are voting for your representative and a party at the same time. This is a problem if you like (for example) the liberal representative and hate the conservative one but you like the conservative leader and hate the liberal one. Who do you vote for? That is why i think this MMP system is better.

 

[monty]

Any system that ensures everyone votes, that everyone has the choice of abstention from the ballot on the voting form thus producing a more democratic vote. If a system, like the one we have here, produces a majority government from a minority vote it has to be wrong. Personally the entire party system sucks anyway but thats another matter.

 

[CanadaToffee]

That's so true, monty, I've long thought that the closest we could ever get to true democracy would be to abolish parties completely; vote in individuals who would then vote individually on all legislation, and vote a committee (cabinet) to manager executive functions with a rotating chairman instead of a PM or President. Could never happen though, soon enough they' start forming blocs to buld power bases so we'd have a party system anyway.

Benevolent dictator available here - reasonable rates...

 

[atrottel]

Any system that ensures everyone votes, that everyone has the choice of abstention from the ballot on the voting form thus producing a more democratic vote. If a system, like the one we have here, produces a majority government from a minority vote it has to be wrong. Personally the entire party system sucks anyway but thats another matter.

Well yes, monty, in theory I agree with you. But if in practice proportional representation produces unstable minority governments (e.g. Italy), disgust with which then leads to throwing away elements of democracy (e.g. Italy), or, even worse, decades of grand coalitions between the two main parties (e.g. Austria), which then results in extreme parties gaining power (e.g. Austria), then I would prefer first past the post with all its many warts.

 

[little curly alan ball]

That's so true, monty, I've long thought that the closest we could ever get to true democracy would be to abolish parties completely; vote in individuals who would then vote individually on all legislation, and vote a committee (cabinet) to manager executive functions with a rotating chairman instead of a PM or President. Could never happen though, soon enough they' start forming blocs to buld power bases so we'd have a party system anyway.

Benevolent dictator available here - reasonable rates...

co - reccctt meine freunde . as i said , self - perpetuating , self absorbed knobs . lcab