Guardiola to be found out in the premier league

[Billy Dean]

I think a lot just depends on how you view the game. If you're a "results are all that matters " pragmatist, you're less likely to have a positive view of pep than if you are the type for whom winning with style is important. I think this is where a lot of the hostility towards Pep comes from, a hostility towards style generally.

 

[mkrudden]

For all the debates regarding money, what about the clear evidence that he has improved players he already had?

Kevin De Bruyne
David Silva
Raheem Sterling
Fabian Delph

?

Or did he do this with money too?

 

[Safc-mark-91]

For all the debates regarding money, what about the clear evidence that he has improved players he already had?

Kevin De Bruyne
David Silva
Raheem Sterling
Fabian Delph

?

Or did he do this with money too?

Good post mate.

Not forgetting bringing in a keeper with incredible ball distribution, to start attacks off. I remember on his first pre-season match Ederson made a balls-up but Pep laughed off the media criticising him and backed him. He's now a sweeper keeper with an incredible passing range.

Like you say, Sterling too. He was something of a joke figure after his woeful world cup, with some suggesting he was overrated and too predictable. Now, he's already a contender for POTS with 12 goals (?) already, assists and very consistent quality performances too. He's torturing full-backs. Pep has worked on him intensively in training and it's showing.

I don't even think it's up for debate. He has improved Man City to such a degree there's a serious argument to be made they could be the greatest premiership side of all-time. Controversial I know! Considering, techinally, they haven't won anything major yet. (Although title is virtually secured and imminent)Personally, I still think that Arsenal invincible team with Campbell, Piers, Viera, Henry etc are better overall, but I'm sure people will disagree with me.

David Silva has always been world class but since Pep come in, he's now raised his game to an even higher level than ever before. He's added goals to his game, aswel As his usual superb assists. As for Kevin De Bruyne - Awesome. He's got all these players playing at the highest of levels and they buy into his philosophy of possesson football but quick penetrating attacks.

Can't be a coincidence that all these players are playing are starting to peak at the same time. He deserves huge credit for what he's done to Man City. With the title virtually in the bag before Christmas, I'll be interested to see how far they get in the Champions League.

 

[Safc-mark-91]

Good post mate.

Not forgetting bringing in a keeper with incredible ball distribution, to start attacks off. I remember on his first pre-season match Ederson made a balls-up but Pep laughed off the media criticising him and backed him. He's now a sweeper keeper with an incredible passing range.

Like you say, Sterling too. He was something of a joke figure after his woeful world cup, with some suggesting he was overrated and too predictable. Now, he's already a contender for POTS with 12 goals (?) already, assists and very consistent quality performances too. He's torturing full-backs. Pep has worked on him intensively in training and it's showing.

I don't even think it's up for debate. He has improved Man City to such a degree there's a serious argument to be made they could be the greatest premiership side of all-time. Controversial I know! Considering, techinally, they haven't won anything major yet. (Although title is virtually secured and imminent)Personally, I still think that Arsenal invincible team with Campbell, Piers, Viera, Henry etc are better overall, but I'm sure people will disagree with me.

David Silva has always been world class but since Pep come in, he's now raised his game to an even higher level than ever before. He's added goals to his game, aswel As his usual superb assists. As for Kevin De Bruyne - Awesome. He's got all these players playing at the highest of levels and they buy into his philosophy of possesson football but quick penetrating attacks.

Can't be a coincidence that all these players are playing are starting to peak at the same time. He deserves huge credit for what he's done to Man City. With the title virtually in the bag before Christmas, I'll be interested to see how far they get in the Champions League.

Notice my little joke putting Piers Morgan in as one of the 'invincibles'. Of course that was done on purpose with him being a big Arsenal fan. Nothing at all do with auto-spell mugging me right off and changing 'Pires' to bloody Piers! lol

 

[Seamus Colemole]

For all the debates regarding money, what about the clear evidence that he has improved players he already had?

Kevin De Bruyne
David Silva
Raheem Sterling
Fabian Delph

?

Or did he do this with money too?

Ok, he's improved them so credit where it's due.

Sam Allardyce has improved Ashley Williams, Cuco Martina, Wayne Rooney and Gylfi Siggurdsson.

Guess they're tied as equal best manager in the world.

Unless of course Roy Hodgson takes that title by himself for improving Crystal Palace's whole team.

 

[mkrudden]

Ok, he's improved them so credit where it's due.

Sam Allardyce has improved Ashley Williams, Cuco Martina, Wayne Rooney and Gylfi Siggurdsson.

Guess they're tied as equal best manager in the world.

Unless of course Roy Hodgson takes that title by himself for improving Crystal Palace's whole team.

I cannot imagine that a poster as good as yourself believes that you're making a valid appoint above. My point was that he is winning games, has an excellent CV AND is improving players.

To enquire further as to your bizarre assertion, how does:

"Sam Allardyce has improved Ashley Williams, Cuco Martina, Wayne Rooney and Gylfi Siggurdsson."

equal

"best manager in the world."

when



does not equate to



and neither does



with

 

[Safc-mark-91]

Ok, he's improved them so credit where it's due.

Sam Allardyce has improved Ashley Williams, Cuco Martina, Wayne Rooney and Gylfi Siggurdsson.

Guess they're tied as equal best manager in the world.

Unless of course Roy Hodgson takes that title by himself for improving Crystal Palace's whole team.

It's not just that side of things mate. If you look at the bigger picture in what he's done to City this year - They've become a team who press you highly, keep the ball and just destroy you with the sheer weight of the ridiculous attacking armoury they have. I'd say City could beat any team in the world in the moment (excluding maybe Real Madrid and PSG) on current form. Wouldn't even surprise me if they got to the got to the final of the CL.

He's improved virtually all of the key players mate. He's also won everything as a manager that there is to win. Can't compare with Sam or Roy, impossible comparasion.

He recognised last season they needed quality full-backs to compete at the highest level. He's addressed that by signing Walker & Mendy - Both young, pacey and powerful capable of playing in that wing-back role. Also, Bravo last season in goal cost them points. He's went out and signed a top drawer sweeper keeper who is in great form. Almost everything he's done this season has improved them.

The fact that they've virtually won the league before Christmas, are in the semi-final of the league cup (I know it's not called that now but you know what I mean) and have eased their way to the knockout stages of the Champions League is a staggering and ridiculous achievement and a lot of the credit has to go to Pep.

Meanwhile, his old foe Mourinho is miles away from City (Both in terms of points and current club stature).

Last year he had a good team but what stopped them winning the league was a 'dodgy' keeper in Bravo and lack of pace in terms of full-backs/Wing-backs. Like I say, both of them positions have been improved - Massively.

Aguero - Sterling - Sane - Jesus etc. It's frightening how many attacking options they have. Then, you have Silva and KDB in stunning form too.

He's done a hell of a job. Obviously, he's carried a bit of good fortune (Which you need). He's avoided big injuries to Aguero or Kevin Dr Bruyne, which could have been costly.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

I cannot imagine that a poster as good as yourself believes that you're making a valid appoint above. My point was that he is winning games, has an excellent CV AND is improving players.

To enquire further as to your bizarre assertion, how does:

"Sam Allardyce has improved Ashley Williams, Cuco Martina, Wayne Rooney and Gylfi Siggurdsson."

equal

"best manager in the world."

when

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does not equate to

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and neither does

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with

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It was somewhat flippant, yes.

But there is a genuine point there pertaining to him improving players : he has done that so credit to him. But other managers improve players as well so it's simply a sign of a good manager doing his job well. It doesn't necessarily make him any better a manager than any of the managers i mentioned (and the plenty who i didn't but have also improved players).

He's obviously a good manager. There are lots of good managers in world football.

In my eyes he will never ever prove himself to be "the best manager in the world" whilst he manages clubs where he has such a huge advantage over the vast majority of other managers.

I've said before that these days you cannot truly judge a manager's ability on results because there are so many numerous other factors that come into play that affect how well they will do at a club. Of course, sometimes a bad manager fails simply because he's a bad manager. But there are numerous examples of managers doing well at one club but poor at another and vice versa, and thats not because they turned from a good manager to a bad manager, or from a bad manager to a good manager.

And it's not always as simple as being a good manager or a bad manager. Just like the difference between a good striker and a good defender, managers have different skill sets and abilities which can suit certain clubs and not others.

Guardiola's skills and abilities clearly suit the Barcalona's and Man Cities of this world. Sam Allardyces skills and abilities clearly suit the Boltons and Sunderlands of this world. Guardiola doing a good job at one doesn't make him a better manager that Allardyce doing a good job at another.

So he might be the best manager in the world. But he hasn't proven it for me. And chances are he never will. Until he takes a team struggling near the bottom of the league and has them in the top 4 the next season.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

It's not just that side of things mate. If you look at the bigger picture in what he's done to City this year - They've become a team who press you highly, keep the ball and just destroy you with the sheer weight of the ridiculous attacking armoury they have. I'd say City could beat any team in the world in the moment (excluding maybe Real Madrid and PSG) on current form. Wouldn't even surprise me if they got to the got to the final of the CL.

He's improved virtually all of the key players mate. He's also won everything as a manager that there is to win. Can't compare with Sam or Roy, impossible comparasion.

He recognised last season they needed quality full-backs to compete at the highest level. He's addressed that by signing Walker & Mandy - Both young, pacey and powerful capable of playing in that wing-back role. Also, Bravo last season in goal cost them points. He's went out and signed a top drawer sweeper keeper who is in great form. Almost everything he's done this season has improved them.

The fact that they've virtually won the league before Christmas, are in the semi-final of the league cup (I know it's not called that now but you know what I mean) and have eased their way to the knockout stages of the Champions League is a staggering and ridiculous achievement and a lot of the credit has to go to Pep.

Meanwhile, his old foe Mourinho is miles away from City (Both in terms of points and current club stature).

Last year he had a good team but what stopped them winning the league was a 'dodgy' keeper in Bravo and lack of pace in terms of full-backs/Wing-backs. Like I say, both of them positions have been improved - Massively.

Aguero - Sterling - Sane - Jesus etc. It's frightening how many attacking options they have. Then, you have Silva and KDB in stunning form too.

He's done a hell of a job. Obviously, he's carried a bit of good fortune (Which you need). He's avoided big injuries to Aguero or Kevin Dr Bruyne, which could have been costly.

To me all that really shows is that like i said in my post above, he's a good manager who's doing a good job. It doesn't prove he's the best manager in the world considering the base he started from and the money he spent to achieve thise improvements, you have to take that into account when judging how good a manager he actually is.

And it's not like Mourinho hasn't improved Man U either. Sure, City are blowing them away in the league at the moment but weren't they 7th when he took over, now they're second with 2 trophies under their belt (and yes, he had a good base a a lot of money to do that too).

Both good managers who have done good jobs. Sean Dyche has done a good job with Burnley in the last 2 years. Roy Hodgson has done a good job with Palace this season. Lots of managers have done good jobs with their clubs, same as Guardiola.

Swap managers around, give Guardiola 3 years at Burnely or Crystal Palace and Dyche or Hodgson 3 years at Man City and see what happens. Chances are they all flop. Not because they're not good managers, but because like i said in my above post, they have skill sets and different abilities which suit certain clubs rather than others.

To sum up, he's not the best manager in the world, and he's not a fraud. He's a good manager doing a good job. But considering all the advantages he has he isn't any more deserving of praise then the other good managers doing good jobs. And chances are neither me, or those who call him the best manager in the world will ever truly be able to prove it.

 

[Safc-mark-91]

To me all that really shows is that like i said in my post above, he's a good manager who's doing a good job. It doesn't prove he's the best manager in the world considering the base he started from and the money he spent to achieve thise improvements, you have to take that into account when judging how good a manager he actually is.

And it's not like Mourinho hasn't improved Man U either. Sure, City are blowing them away in the league at the moment but weren't they 7th when he took over, now they're second with 2 trophies under their belt (and yes, he had a good base a a lot of money to do that too).

Both good managers who have done good jobs. Sean Dyche has done a good job with Burnley in the last 2 years. Roy Hodgson has done a good job with Palace this season. Lots of managers have done good jobs with their clubs, same as Guardiola.

Swap managers around, give Guardiola 3 years at Burnely or Crystal Palace and Dyche or Hodgson 3 years at Man City and see what happens. Chances are they all flop. Not because they're not good managers, but because like i said in my above post, they have skill sets and different abilities which suit certain clubs rather than others.

To sum up, he's not the best manager in the world, and he's not a fraud. He's a good manager doing a good job. But considering all the advantages he has he isn't any more deserving of praise then the other good managers doing good jobs. And chances are neither me, or those who call him the best manager in the world will ever truly be able to prove it.

I know where you're coming from but it's a bit of a hypothetical argument as the top managers have earned the right to go where they will be well backed and have £££ to spend.

It's not like we could really put them to the test and have say Klopp, Jose and Pep all take charge of a lower League 2 team and give them all 2 years and see who does the best job with extremely limited funding. (Much as I'd like to see that!) Of course, Pep joined City and was given the foundations of a pretty much unlimited bank balance, great stadium, excellent training facilities etc. But, all that counts for nothing if you can't do the business on the pitch, you still have to manage that City team and win over the crowd which he's done.

Like you say, Jose was given a similar task to Pep with serious cash to spend and despite winning a few trophies, hasn't exactly set Man United on fire. Certainly, massively improved them. But, they're well, well behind City and at the moment - Meaning Pep has the upper hand v Jose.

Just out of interest. If for example, City win the league (as expected) along with say the FA cup & League cup and they win the treble. Would you then concede he's currently the best manager in the world. Or, would you still stick to your belief that he's done it all courtesy of a huge backing and miracle advantage?

It's odd because I can genuinely see your argument. Of course, having 200m to spend over some of your rivals makes it a tiny bit easier! But, then you can counter that by saying does that not bring more pressure? So, only the very best managers can cope with that pressure and still deliver brilliant football and ultimately success. (Like Pep is doing).

Fair point about swapping managers other too. We'd have interesting results I'd expect.

Who is the best manager in the world? I think Pep - What about you mate?

 

[Seamus Colemole]

I know where you're coming from but it's a bit of a hypothetical argument as the top managers have earned the right to go where they will be well backed and have £££ to spend.

It's not like we could really put them to the test and have say Klopp, Jose and Pep all take charge of a lower League 2 team and give them all 2 years and see who does the best job with extremely limited funding. (Much as I'd like to see that!) Of course, Pep joined City and was given the foundations of a pretty much unlimited bank balance, great stadium, excellent training facilities etc. But, all that counts for nothing if you can't do the business on the pitch, you still have to manage that City team and win over the crowd which he's done.

Like you say, Jose was given a similar task to Pep with serious cash to spend and despite winning a few trophies, hasn't exactly set Man United on fire. Certainly, massively improved them. But, they're well, well behind City and at the moment - Meaning Pep has the upper hand v Jose.

Just out of interest. If for example, City win the league (as expected) along with say the FA cup & League cup and they win the treble. Would you then concede he's currently the best manager in the world. Or, would you still stick to your belief that he's done it all courtesy of a huge backing and miracle advantage?

It's odd because I can genuinely see your argument. Of course, having 200m to spend over some of your rivals makes it a tiny bit easier! But, then you can counter that by saying does that not bring more pressure? So, only the very best managers can cope with that pressure and still deliver brilliant football and ultimately success. (Like Pep is doing).

Fair point about swapping managers other too. We'd have interesting results I'd expect.

Who is the best manager in the world? I think Pep - What about you mate?

Sure, he's probably under a lot of pressure, but aren't those managers at the bottom of the league trying to avoid relegation as well?

If he wins the treble? Nah my opinion won't change, he won't have proved he's the best manager in the world. Sure, you can compare him to previous Man City managers who also had huge money and say he's better then them, i wouldn't really argue.

Best manager in the world? Impossible to accurately judge due to the massive advantages some managers have over others which mean the playing field is so uneven it's almost vertical.

But i think if you did try to rank managers that probably the best way to do so is to take into account finances compared to peers and the position the club was in when he took over and where they are now/when he left. Did he improve that club? Preferably a manager who has improved several clubs. Then you have to take into account other factors like board interference/backing, injuries, bad refereeing decisions, player attitudes and probably lots of other things to.

So overall it's pretty damn impossible to rank managers purely on terms of ability. But i've said it before and i'll say it again, a manager who has improved clubs struggling at the bottom of the league is just as deserving of equal praise that Guardiola is for improving Man City at the top of the league after you take into account all the advantages Guardiola has to start from.

 

[naz]

There's one thing being able to shout at and organise players, but another to produce some of the finest football teams the world has ever seen. Anyone who thinks you can just throw money at it doesn't know anything. Look at Man Utd since Ferguson. Moyes, LVG and possibly now Mourinho all failed with money and players

 

[roydo]

There's one thing being able to shout at and organise players, but another to produce some of the finest football teams the world has ever seen. Anyone who thinks you can just throw money at it doesn't know anything. Look at Man Utd since Ferguson. Moyes, LVG and possibly now Mourinho all failed with money and players

Oh great. Another City fan who almost certainly wasnt at the Gillingham play off game educating the unwashed. Again.

 

[jal123]

I particularly like his lassez fairer approach to player rehab, which mostly involves sending them to a specific clinic in Barcelona for a few weeks until they come back like Captain America.

 

[ManCityFan]

First post from me here. As the name suggests I’m a City fan and I’m here for a sensible and objective discussion.

I’d been scanning forums for a collective view on Peps style of play since coming to City and have been surprised by some of the ultra negative opinions on him.

For anyone interested here’s a City fans opinion on him;

He was regarded as the best coach in the world (or one of) and many top English clubs would have given their right arms to have him.

When he chose City the opinions started to change. In our usual English way we lauded someone and then look to knock them over.

In his first year he was heavily slated for kicking out Joe Hart - he did not fit his style of play (which to be fair we knew little about at the time). He brought in Bravo who was a nightmare but knew how Pep wanted to play. Pep stuck with him under a barrage of crticism.
He kept playing the style of football we were starting to question - we got smashed at Leicester and at Everton and doubts were starting to creep in.
He continued on that path but knowing our weakness was that we simply had four full backs in their 30’s and a squad the hadn’t been moved on by pellegrini.

He changed the playing staff over rapidly - yes, it cost a bucket load of money- but he changed.

We are now seeing that his ideas that got ridiculed last year are producing some mesmerising football.

He’s improved Stones, Otamendi, Delph, Sterling, KDB to name a few. He’s created a beast of a team.Other managers (including some of our own) have spent £££’s and failed.

Here’s my point in short - he’s not just bought players and slotted the into a usual style of play (which Mancini/ pellegrini did) - he’s bought young players and moulded them into a team playing a brand of football I haven’t seen before.
The the frightening thing is that this team is probably 3-5 years from peaking and he should get a little bit of credit, not for just spending, but for what he’s making them do.