tim cahill
Player Valuation: £50m
Moyes did a good job but went a bit stale. Martinez started brilliantly but ended woefully. Koeman has barely started so it's far too early to judge him.
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Bill Walsh for this, too. Lombardi was the hardest of hardasses, but with a plan. Coughlin is the closest modern equivalent - it must be a Catholic thing. (Please, Shad, please - make the call, offer him something at season end to help us fix this mess)
Other important coaches for the development of the game include non SB winners like Sid Gillman, who developed the modern passing game with the Chargers in the AFL in the 60's - he won some AFL championships. You also have your coaching trees, with a network of loyalties to coaches that had others on his staff. That's a whole other post.
(nods)
toffee matt
Player Valuation: £60m
Moyes is clearly better than Martinez although he's a bigger Tit than Martinez and that's saying something because Martinez is also a massive Tit
Too early to judge Koeman
Too early to judge Koeman
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
That's interesting, and I do see the point you're trying to make. But here's where the confusion is here in this discussion: all those things you list up there (and this is in the vein of what you've argued so far) are not comparisons they are contrasts.
My point here has been that you cannot compare the styles of the three Everton managers we're talking of: a comparison is a measurement between others of the same kind. More precisely what you've been asserting is a contrast - a juxtaposing of different things. That's legitimate in the context of Martinez on the one hand and Moyes/Koeman on the other.
That's the fundamental problem for you here and it goes right back to where we came in: you contrast apples and pears, you dont compare them...hence the reason why we have that idiom.
There are obviously no similarities between the three so why bother comparing? If so, I would have simply argued that one apple is sweeter than the others, and one was quite shiny but filled with worms.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
But you asked us to 'rate' them in your poll. How can you do that if you cant compare them?
I'm aware this is turning into semantics, so I'll just leave it there. Thanks for the discussion.
Eggsyblueskin
Player Valuation: £40m
None of the managers has won anything for us, therefore they are all, currently, failures.
You don't need rhyme or reason to rate something/someone. All you need is a process by which to determine value.
dave abrahams
Player Valuation: £8m
Truly feel for you, can't see any cups on the horizon but you never know
Rat poison on toast is better than Kenwright.
barneygumble
Player Valuation: £60m
I don't think anyone was unhappy with how Moyes went about his business, until he got the sniff that Fergie's time was coming to an end.
He took us as far as he could, and in my opinion, should have resigned the day we lost the semi final to Liverpool. Durge.
His record at the big clubs was appalling and his negativity, has clearly followed him to Sunderland.
He made some huge signings like Cahill, Martyn, Jagielka and Arteta. But to elevate us to a top 5 side like he did, and having such a long tenure, no trophies will always be his legacy. Oh and the way he handled the final season, and the start of his United tenure towards Everton was a disgrace.
Koeman we can't judge on 4 months.
Martinez, well... is he the one to blame for the way we are now? Has the going got so bad, that the players have fallen back into the negative martinez trance?
Or is it the players we're just that bad, and their attitude stinks?
He took us as far as he could, and in my opinion, should have resigned the day we lost the semi final to Liverpool. Durge.
His record at the big clubs was appalling and his negativity, has clearly followed him to Sunderland.
He made some huge signings like Cahill, Martyn, Jagielka and Arteta. But to elevate us to a top 5 side like he did, and having such a long tenure, no trophies will always be his legacy. Oh and the way he handled the final season, and the start of his United tenure towards Everton was a disgrace.
Koeman we can't judge on 4 months.
Martinez, well... is he the one to blame for the way we are now? Has the going got so bad, that the players have fallen back into the negative martinez trance?
Or is it the players we're just that bad, and their attitude stinks?
M&M had good points and bad
with hindsight, both were totally inflexible and rigid, well beyond confidence in your methods in the face of the slings and arrows etc.
I've said it so it must be right, It there must also be right because I've said it, rinse reverse and repeat.
It seemed to me that all Moyes had to do was let the handbrake off a little and let them play a bit...he did have some good teams players, just didn't know what to do with them for the best
For nearly 2 seasons of Martinez I was calling for 'The Goldilocks Option' - 'Not too much Moyes and not too much Martinez, but just right'
Martinez did this for 3 or 4 months and we looked good...we know the rest.
I thought (hoped) that Koeman, applying doses of Dutch pragmatism laced with a healthy slug of Dutch style Total Football might be that Goldilocks...Up to now it hasn't happened for diverse reasons.
It might still happen, but I'm not too sure we can hold our collective breath long enough
At the end of his 2nd season ( winces ) all we might find is that after all he DID have stuff in common with M&M ...Inflexibility.
lancs blue
Player Valuation: £35m
just need a clear out as too much deadwood. martinez's poison has seeped too much into the team. i get the feeling that most will be happy to sit there until the end of their contracts giving us more grief
@SerenityNigh; I'll give credit to Patrick Murphy who sums up Moyes Vs Koeman thus,
[Under Moyes] we were a team crying out for a centre-forward. Now we're a centre-forward crying out for a team. Which is best?
Neither in reality but a team lacking in one area can still eek out results; a team lacking in nearly every department is the one we are witnessing at the minute.
[Under Moyes] we were a team crying out for a centre-forward. Now we're a centre-forward crying out for a team. Which is best?
Neither in reality but a team lacking in one area can still eek out results; a team lacking in nearly every department is the one we are witnessing at the minute.
Well what a surprise, I didn't see that one coming and no mistake, talk about knock me down with a feather etc. etc. Davek backing Martinez Uber Alles.
You were quite happy to go along with the many saying negative things about Koeman...as long as there was no direct detriment to Martinez... then out you come like an 8ft momma grizzily bear with a cub in the cave.
This 60 Pt. Barrier - would this be the same one you were claiming this time last year, that Martinez's team would be well through by the end of the season...
The season that ended on - erm *thinks* Oh yeah I remember now, 49pts for the 2nd season in a row.
The same season that you were So sure ( of the 60pts) you wouldn't take my 'token' bet to pay you out on every point over 50pts
Koeman has imo not helped himself or been helped by the players, but he is not the Architect in Chief of his own current position
Admit it or not, just as Martinez's 72Pts had a Moyes foundation, Koemans continued bad run and for all I know the players attitude, has a Martinez base.
M&M were all plan A and no plan B
Up to now Koeman hasn't even a plan A
Martinez's ship has sailed mate, he's gone. The only way he'll be back is on a 'who was worst thread' in an International break, where the only contestants are Him, Walker and, tbf, if we're really unlucky...Koeman.
#1st of March - Those who know need no explanation...
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
I dont follow this. Do you think that I'm saying 60 points is bad when I said it was ok before? Nope. I mean it's not good enough to get us to the next level.
What would be the name of that thread? "Who was our worst manager to break our PL points record?"? That'll be a short thread.
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