New Everton Stadium Discussion

Not negative at all.... I try to back up any reservations/concerns with facts, figures or direct comparisons. The main ones being relating to finances, which i think have proved to be well founded. The club themselves said that it was tight modelling 60k movement in/out and around the dock site.... and the planning permission was only granted after the height reduction! So it's hardly a given.... that's before you consider the costs.

Whereas St James's expansion has been planned for years. The area above the underground station at the Gallowgate end was always going to be redeveloped and would've been years ago if the stadium/casino project had happened, or had Ashley not taken over and profiteered from the site in question. The last owner of that site was planning a major high rise development, so building on there was never an issue. They haven't bought that site back just to put a fanzone on it. That is only the short term scheme while considering their options.... the stadium is already in the city centre and has almost endless amenities on its doorstep including a bar built into the stand itself. So there is no major issue at all for them to get to 60k just by reworking that end, with plans long drawn up. With recent reports of them even looking at the east stand getting a rebuild. Not to mention the fact that the existing 52,500 is fully paid for and they're loaded. The only issue for them is if 60k+ meets their ambitions....!

As regards LFC. They've had no real problems obtaining planning permission or getting CPOs issued to expand their footprint thus far. Included for listed buildings and building on a listed Victorian park. They don't necessarily need to expand the depth of the Kop if increased ratios are allowed and/or if they better utilise the corners than they currently do. They may have painted themselves into a corner, but they always seem to come up smelling of roses, so I wouldn't say any expansion wasn't possible for them any more.
My point was specifically about how difficult it physically to expand. By any metric, BMD is much easier than both of the other examples.

You have chosen to move the goalposts and say the Newcastle could afford it and that Liverpool have historically managed to secure CPOs. Why? Just so you can paint BMD in a negative light against the other two?
 
Just been propositioned by the lovely Julie on the 'phone from the stadium office asking what my preferred choice of seat would be.

Told her one that I can't see the pitch from. She got the joke.
Jesus, I would absolutely love a phone call asking me where I’d like my season ticket to be at BMD.

Given that I’m thousands of miles away and have never had a season ticket, I can only dream. Very jealous.
 

It might well be. Certainly for some of the factors you mention. It's all probably a bit subjective tbh, and difficult to assess definitively, as there are a broad range of capacities of stadia in the Prem, and there are other criteria to consider too.... I mean, how do you compare Old Trafford to say the Vitality? Yet Bournemouth might be able to say that their stadium fits their needs better than Man Utd's famous old stadium does theirs? People will have a range perspectives and prioritise some of those criteria quite differently. What about atmosphere? Affordability (for club to build and fans to buy tickets)? Transport/accessibility? Getting to and from stadia is definitely a major part of "the match-day experience" for most fans. Surrounding facilities may also be a major issue for others. Some fans/clubs/observers may place a far greater onus on the value of history and tradition. Glasgow Rangers for instance completely remodelled Ibrox, yet the old mainstand is still their centre-piece stand. Similar for little old Fulham at their waterfront museum piece. So all in all, it can be a difficult thing to measure objectively.

NWHL and the Emirates are amongst the newest of the rest, so they're probably a fairly direct comparison. Of course, they both win on capacity. Their corporate capacities are also much bigger, with 80 and 120+ boxes respectively, with whole corporate tiers at optimum viewing distances/elevation for greater exclusivity etc. So their matchday income versus cost and ROI probably beats ours too. For many, the Emirates probably overdid that aspect. The resultant fragmentation created by a continous corporate tier on all sides, plus the relatively low upper tier capacity has famously (adversely) affected the atmosphere. Arsenal would probably argue that they needed that amount of corporate to pay for it. I think there are plans afoot to remedy that at one end, by continuing the upper tier downwards and losing the corporate/boxes at that end.... but not sure if that'll happen. The lower tier (which is almost half the total capacity) is also quite shallow and distant too, making it not great when everyone stands. Spurs wanted to iron out some of the Emirates failings at NWHL. They wanted a similar corporate capacity, but with better proportions and the ubiquitous large home end (kop derivative), to help bolster the atmosphere. This they seem to have mostly achieved. The facilities are probably better than anywhere and they are generally closer to the pitch than at the Emirates, with safe-standing incorporated. They also have the added facility of a moving pitch, which greatly increases the versatility of the stadium to host other events all year round. As far as I've heard, the large South stand, though noisy, hasn't been quite the atmospheric cauldron intended. Some mentioning the high airy roof not quite harnessing the sound etc. I was a bit surprised that they didn't try to better emulate their famous shelf by putting a large lower tier on the East side for the more vociferous to gather, as at WHL.... but I suppose the desire to maximise corporate on the sides won out.

Personally, I've never been overly bothered about stadium externals myself. Some of the greatest stadia in the world are surprisingly plain, functional or even brutally austere on the outside. For me stadia are probably the only building type that are always best judged internally. For the most part, the external facade adds little to nothing to the matchday experience for me. Inside is always the defining factor. That is where we spend the most time. That is where the TV cameras all focus and where all the important stuff happens. It's also how we best recognise most stadia. How those internal tiers are arranged to bring us all closer to the action, with various viewing angles/offers etc. How we all interact with that arrangement to create the atmosphere etc are the really important design features. The external architecture and even the setting have no influence on any of that... they are the frills or "nice-to-haves" as far as I'm concerned. For instance, if you put Prenton Park on Bramley Moore dock and rebuilt a facsimile of Albert dock warehouses around it, it would still be Prenton Park inside. Perhaps Brighton fans would say their contryside setting is more aesthetically pleasing.... ?

It's fair to say that BMD probably trumps the rest in terms of external aesthetics and setting..... but it has come at a cost. Internally, NWHL is for the most part more impressive. However, as Meis says, it is in many ways more similar to the large NFL stadia than the traditional British stadia. Sometimes less is more. The much simpler BMD bowl should better lend itself to greater acoustic unity than both North London stadia for a greater "whole-stadium" atmosphere. So yes, overall, it could well be the best when completed.

Of course, other stadia are still likely to change/grow in the years to come.... St James's will be 60k+ in the next few years. Anfield and the Etihad may well get to 65-70k in years to come so, future-proofing might be a further factor to consider.
Hi Tom, met you once before many years ago in town, after a KEOIC meeting (the one that Big Nev attended). IMHO you are as plausible now in your discussion as you were that evening - I think I'd told you I worked for one of the companies involved in Kings Waterfront Development - if the battles that we'd had with the City Council at that time were known.... It was the Bluenoses amongst the companies working for the club that turned that around - from 7tj (out of 6) bids to preferred. The rest is history.

I was never sold on the redevelop option - the economics just didn't work for me. But I'll park that here and hopefully we can discuss again if I'm back in UK anytime soon and can get a ticket!

But KW wore me out, and Kirkby - I was no longer working for the former company (who were retained) - was the final straw.

BMD for me is the consolation prize for KW. But given the bullshit and poor stewardship we've had to put up with over the last couple of decades, it's better than a speedboat on Bullseye (one for the teenagers).
 
Some actual perspective of the rake and how big those stands actually are.

Amazing
IMG_8686.jpeg
 

I know Dan Mei's referenced the fact that the 4 stands are all different which indeed they are. Does anybody know if the upper west and upper east stands have the same number of rows? Thanks.
 
My point was specifically about how difficult it physically to expand. By any metric, BMD is much easier than both of the other examples.

You have chosen to move the goalposts and say the Newcastle could afford it and that Liverpool have historically managed to secure CPOs. Why? Just so you can paint BMD in a negative light against the other two?

By any metric? Isn't cost a metric? Planning has already restricted the height of BMD once. So certainly not definitively by that metric either. Nor by the club's own site access/egress and people-movement/circulation modelling. All before considering what the cost/circulation implications will be of the West Stand after having the adjacent water-channel reinstated.

St James's needs to only have their original phased plan completed to get to 60k+. ie Just the Gallowgate stand extended (with included corner), on land they've just re-acquired that is fully accessible on all sides. Replacing one roof to complete a unified horseshoe plan. The only issue for them is if that (and any potential expansion of the east stand) meets their longer term ambitions.

LFC will have completed 2 phases. They have clearly demonstrated that rows of houses or even displacement of a road has not been physically/planning/cost prohibitive. Having to rebuild a complete stand might be.

My point was that many of those stadia will almost certainly be expanded or modified further. No "negative light" just basic facts.
 
By any metric? Isn't cost a metric? Planning has already restricted the height of BMD once. So certainly not definitively by that metric either. Nor by the club's own site access/egress and people-movement/circulation modelling. All before considering what the cost/circulation implications will be of the West Stand after having the adjacent water-channel reinstated.

St James's needs to only have their original phased plan completed to get to 60k+. ie Just the Gallowgate stand extended (with included corner), on land they've just re-acquired that is fully accessible on all sides. Replacing one roof to complete a unified horseshoe plan. The only issue for them is if that (and any potential expansion of the east stand) meets their longer term ambitions.

LFC will have completed 2 phases. They have clearly demonstrated that rows of houses or even displacement of a road has not been physically/planning/cost prohibitive. Having to rebuild a complete stand might be.

My point was that many of those stadia will almost certainly be expanded or modified further. No "negative light" just basic facts.
Jesus wept!!!!!!

Physically. Not financially. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

No serious person can twist this to make it seem like Anfield and St. James are easier to expand physically.
 
Jesus wept!!!!!!

Physically. Not financially. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

No serious person can twist this to make it seem like Anfield and St. James are easier to expand physically.
To be perfectly honest, BMD would have to have been designed to allow for expansion, with piles set to take account of any shifting weight distribution caused by any sort of meaningful expansion, so in that regard, both the stadia you mentioned would be easier to remodel. That's before taking into account any other restrictions. Much of BMD's concourse areas are free standing rather than being created by the bowl structure, a feature of them being so deep, that also means that much of the bowls weight distribution doesn't pass though the concourses on the East and West stand as in most traditional stadia. That means that for each of these to add a tier or so, there would have to be significant remodel of all the concourse areas that would add significant cost with a large addition of supports passing through existing spaces.

It's not as simple as just adding a bit on, we're literally building on sand, something that the vast majority of world stadia don't have to worry about.
 

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