New Everton Stadium Discussion

[The binman chronicles]

Enjoyed the part of 3:48 when the aliens from Arrival made a guest appearance

Typical, just finishing the stadium and war of the worlds starts right in the docks of Liverpool. Everyone hates us.

 

[Dixieslaces]

Following!!!

UTFT

 

[The binman chronicles]

 

[SingBlue]

There should be a sizeable increase in matchday income, however that is not a given across the full range of ticket categories. The fact that no-one seems to be able to lift figures from projections in the planning or subsequent docs since, might indicate a slightly laissez-faire attitude by club (and fans) in our approach.... which as far as I can see appears to have been based on "don't worry, Uncle Ussy's got it covered". A predication that no longer applies, as is applicable to most aspects of the original financial strategy.

For example: When West Ham first went from their 35k stadium to the 55k+ (now 62k+) Olympic stadium in 2016, their matchday income barely changed for the first few seasons up to covid. To fill the extra capacity they had to reduce average ticket prices. Fortunately for them, the stadium was a freeby and there was sufficient latent and new support in London and the home counties to draw from (presumably 10 million+ population gives a reasonable floating vote). Our club has claimed a 15-20k waiting list in recent times (yet only mention much smaller waiting lists in the actual planning docs). We will have to see how price-dependent our total season ticket demand is, before we can predict what income increase there will be from increased General Admission ticket capacity. Austerity rarely affects the wealthy, so the premium seating sales shouldn't be overly affected by the current cost of living crisis, the mid-level and corporate-lite range may or may not be less resilient.... I think they're still testing that price range as we speak. As you say, we've had low ticket prices and certainly no success in recent years. It's also a smaller capacity step- up, so overall our ticket-price elasticity might be more robust than West Ham's. Since Covid, their matchday income has gradually increased to the point where they're roughly 25%-50% higher than their final Boleyn ground matchday income of 8yrs ago.

At perhaps the other end of the scale, Spurs roughly doubled their matchday income and I think Arsenal went from approx £40m to £70m when they first moved too (but they had to endure several years of increased austerity afterwards). The commercial incomes have risen too and Spurs seemed to have benefited from a good hike in those figures. So, maybe our projections are somewhere in between. The issue is of course, if or not all of the anticipated income increases can cover the debt in the absence of USM or similar outside support. At present we have little or no official stadium financial figures, no sponsor, nothing solid on the ownership make-up or its longevity, with all the other "financial sustainability" and on-pitch frailties as a backdrop. So it's very difficult to make accurate or valid comparisons.

Tom, re Arsenal, quite a few years ago on one of my trips back from Middle East, I ended up getting a ticket which included the "Strikers Lounge" at No. 9 Goodison Road. Arsenal were the opponents (we lost 0-1 and Drenthe had a goal ruled out for offside, which should've stood). After the match, I was back in the Lounge, and a bunch of Arsenal Execs turned up, suited and booted, Arsenal ties etc. I got talking to one of them, and he mentioned that when they signed the original 10-year naming rights deal with Emirates, they were delighted. Quickly they became horrified as the sponsorship market moved so rapidly, and they were counting down the months until the end of that deal (which has been extended to 2028 at a higher rate).

Another example was Man Utd. They signed a training kit sponsorship deal with DHL, for about £4m a season. When their Shirt Sponsor deal with AON ended early (to bring in Chevrolet), AON wanted to remain involved, and took over sponsorship of the training ground - that meant Man U had to pay off DHL (I believe to the tune of £10m) for ending the deal early. But overall they were better off.

I'm sure Everton's commercial people are on top of it, but there's a school of thought that says that long term sponsorship deals can be bad for both parties.

Historically our commercial performance has been piss poor. At one stage, our neighbours commercial income obliterated our total revenue (including broadcast) - I've said since the late 80s that Everton was run like a corner shop. Back then it was around c.£5m turnover. The mentality persisted probably until Moshiri appeared.

 

[toffee66]

The argument for an initial long term stadium rights deal is it generates cash up front to reduce stadium build debt and hence interest costs. You can tolerate some loss of value relative to the prevailing market later in the life of the deal because it improves the profile so much early on, though if the market shifts up soon after the deal (Arsenal) it is obviously frustrating.

However, the inverse of this is many sponsors have come to see long term naming rights deals as millstones and even those who see value in them often cannot get them approved as they go beyond their organisation’s 3-5 year strategic planning cycles. This means the stadium naming rights market is far more restricted than it was even a decade ago.

Other sponsorship deals (outside the top 10 or so global teams) generally do not generate as much cash up front so tying yourself in to longer deals is riskier for clubs unless they are mega deals at the top of the current market. If you see your performance/commercial reach as currently impaired but expect it to improve in the next 1-3 years (our situation) short deals/deals with break clauses offer better flexibility and opportunity.

 

[Mikey O]

Ground's coming along a treat - it's going to be something special

 

[Dr Baxter]

Great video again from Nick. Did anyone notice that there seems to be some fixings attached to the concrete terracing in the East stand towards the north stand? At least, I'm guessing that's what they are. I wonder if it's something to do with attaching the seats?

 

[cooperman]

Great video again from Nick. Did anyone notice that there seems to be some fixings attached to the concrete terracing in the East stand towards the north stand? At least, I'm guessing that's what they are. I wonder if it's something to do with attaching the seats?

Yeah, looks like it. Maybe something that the rows of seats will anchor to

 

[Charles Plastusz]

Have to say, that time lapse video was excellent. It is going to be amazing, also it has been said before but they have really tapped into something special with the tagline 'Liverpool's 4th Grace'. Really drives home the importance of this project for the whole city.

Think we’ve found our stadium name

 

[matty1878]

The argument for an initial long term stadium rights deal is it generates cash up front to reduce stadium build debt and hence interest costs. You can tolerate some loss of value relative to the prevailing market later in the life of the deal because it improves the profile so much early on, though if the market shifts up soon after the deal (Arsenal) it is obviously frustrating.

However, the inverse of this is many sponsors have come to see long term naming rights deals as millstones and even those who see value in them often cannot get them approved as they go beyond their organisation’s 3-5 year strategic planning cycles. This means the stadium naming rights market is far more restricted than it was even a decade ago.

Other sponsorship deals (outside the top 10 or so global teams) generally do not generate as much cash up front so tying yourself in to longer deals is riskier for clubs unless they are mega deals at the top of the current market. If you see your performance/commercial reach as currently impaired but expect it to improve in the next 1-3 years (our situation) short deals/deals with break clauses offer better flexibility and opportunity.

ok you all know my take on the ground

i want a good team to be in it!

WILL coming in to it change us for the better?

 

[andy4efc]

I worked on some small mods for Sheffield, Metrolink expansion, Nottingham and as mentioned, the Merseytram proposals. I've always thought that Trams looked the part and certainly have their application, but that they've been very much a mixed bag in terms of delivery/performance. They can be like a fish out of water on city centre or suburban streets if adequate segregation isn't provided or if convoluted/restricted routes are chosen..... and as a result cost:benefits have varied substantially (even varied substantially on different lines of the same network). I think the Lime Line (trackless tram) proposals could better suite our city and greatly improve BMD's accessibility too.

Our particular office was mainly involved with overhead line design, but the company as a whole also did track, stations, transport-planning etc for various heavy and light rail and other transport infrastructure projects worldwide and were comfortably the biggest player in that sector in the UK.

I did the basic mechanical design work and pantograph dynamic modelling for our bids on both Nottingham and Merseytram. The major difference for us was that there was obviously far more local knowledge regards Merseytram. Every street name on every layout drawing was familiar to us. We also co-ordinated all our work very closely with Merseytravel and had access to much of their archived data and research etc. So every aspect was scrutinised to a far greater depth than normal. It was only notionally a "bid" for Merseytram, as it was essentally a one-horse race, and we wanted to make it our best tram job ever. If I remember rightly, almost straight away there were various technical issues and reservations regarding the proposals and even the choice of route for line one. I think discussions about amendments/alterations to the scheme went back and forth for over a year, at which point we had to eventually withdraw. I can't remember the precise chronology or reasons now, but it had never happened before on any other tram job we had been involved with.

As regards access/egress to stadia, I'm certainly not an expert. I began to look into it in far more depth during the Destination Kirkby debacle, which was just after I'd left railway engineering to return to Marine Engineering. I already had some local knowledge, as I had worked in Kirkby for a few years and had obviously been involved in Merseytram too. I also knew a few transport planners who had been involved indirectly with knowsley and the stadium scheme..... and after several discussions the various transport issues became even more glaring. Obviously, that whole aspect of the project eventually descended into farce, to the point where it was literally laughed out of the publically inquiry.

During that whole process, KEIOC were looking at GP and the alternative sites as best they could. Because of my background and connections, I asked a former colleague to look at central Docks and the Loop. He had access to all the local transport data and was able to do a basic model of the sites to assess their natural rates of dispersal, as well as measures to improve that. He had done similar elsewhere.

Wembley is a bit of a one-off. Some of its deficiencies are accepted to a degree because every game there is a "special occasion".... and we generally accept more inconvenience for those one-off occasions that we couldn't possibly afford to miss. There is also the "familiarity" aspect, whereby most attendees have little local knowledge or time-honoured routine and hence some chaos often ensues as a result. That said, I think most Spurs fans were reasonably satisfied with their arrangements there. For me it's always been either a stop-over or the old fashioned footy specials for the Wembley excursions.... (but that's all getting to be a very distant memory tbh).

Isn’t a trackless tram effectively a bus?

 

[BNJ1878]

Isn’t a trackless tram effectively a bus?

Kind of. They're sometimes called a trolleybus.

They're electrically powered and they draw power from an overhead power network that's transmitted to the top of the 'tram' via conductors.

It can't make it's own route like a bus (because of the power) but I expect the cost of installing the overhead power is cheaper than laying down tracks.

 

[SingBlue]

Kind of. They're sometimes called a trolleybus.

They're electrically powered and they draw power from an overhead power network that's transmitted to the top of the 'tram' via conductors.

It can't make it's own route like a bus (because of the power) but I expect the cost of installing the overhead power is cheaper than laying down tracks.

There's also catenary-free trams now (still require rails though - and all the associated diversion of stats costs). Battery technology is coming on in leaps and bounds - evidenced by Merseytravel's new trains and soon to run beyond Kirkby.

 

[BNJ1878]

There's also catenary-free trams now (still require rails though - and all the associated diversion of stats costs). Battery technology is coming on in leaps and bounds - evidenced by Merseytravel's new trains and soon to run beyond Kirkby.

Yeah, there's one that's been operating in a 'newer' area of Dubai around the resort beaches and marina area for about the last10 years.

It just runs a continuous loop (with a track in each direction) with probably 15/20 stops in all.

Seems to work quite well but it hasn't had much impact on traffic as people can't be arsed walking to the tram when the car is right there.

 

[Tom Hughes]

Isn’t a trackless tram effectively a bus?

No, trackless trams are not buses (or trolley buses). They are being pioneered in China and are much bigger than buses, carrying 280+ passengers each. They have no track, nor overhead line, so have much lower capital costs than traditional trams, but with similar or better performance (around towns, due to rubber wheels), and far greater flexibility. They are battery powered, with charge topped up at some stops or the terminus. They are guided by painted lines on the road or a small conductor embedded in it, to give potential for autonomous running.

There has been a system spoken about for Liverpool (the Lime Line) connecting the whole waterfront, with a spine running through the city centre up to the "knowledge quarter". If segregated routes could be identified, I think this could really help to pull BMD into the city centre properly.