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New Everton Stadium

degsy said:
We need to be able to move 1000s of people post game, from A to B...and maybe A to C in about 90mins.

Who is going to provide all the buses, taxis, trains or coaches for those 90mins...and what are they going to do with them when the football crowds are not using them.
Its not like 40yrs ago when the Corpy had a vast fleet of buses and they could park up ten or twelve, No. 3s, 19s, 20s 25s, 30s, and 46s etc.for the rush.
Build it and they will come
But how will they go?

Just sayin like.
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It's a fair question, and what we've seen so far from the club on transport is sketchy to say the least, but, as @RobSpurs says, there'll be a transport plan.

Also, you have to bear in mind, that the dispersal of around 39,000 from around Goodison once a fortnight is, compared to many other similar sized grounds, remarkably quick and straightforward. That suggests that, despite BMD currently likely being less well served to funnel people away, that it's not going to be a huge problem to overcome.
 
Jacko93 said:
The ratio isn't based upon how many people you can fit on the terrace, its based upon the amount of people you can safely fit on the concourse, and have the amenities to service.

At existing grounds, such as Goodison for example, you could add another level onto the park end, double the amount of seats and have steps leading up to the top. You wouldn't be allowed to let people sit there. Apart from it likely having fairly suspect structural properties, you can still only get amount of people in eth concourse it was originally designed for.

The site at BMD is constrained. We could design a ground that has concourse space for ~60k fans, but only seating for 52k, assuming Rail seating in areas can go to 1:1.8 (as Dortmund, with 2 standing rows per seated row). Or we could have seating for 55k fans, with concourse space for 55k, meaning that rail seating can then only be 1:1. As a person standing in an aisle realistically takes up approx 545mm width, while a seat takes 465mm width, the actual realistic ratio would then be slightly below the seated capacity, at about 1:0.8.

These are the issues facing existing grounds, concourse and amenity provision, not number of seats.
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The size of concourse is one factor. The other is the size of the treads. You cannot fit double the number of people if the tread depths are too small, meaning you cannot fit two rows of people into a converted seated row..... and for many of those tightly rowed stands the ratio will never be more than 1:1.

The other issues are sizes of vomitories, number of turnstiles and exits, and the design of access stairways etc. As regards the Park end, extending it or adding another tier will provide further concourse areas to accommodate any increased capacity there.... so it wouldn't be an issue.
 
Catfish Blues said:
It's a fair question, and what we've seen so far from the club on transport is sketchy to say the least, but, as @RobSpurs says, there'll be a transport plan.

Also, you have to bear in mind, that the dispersal of around 39,000 from around Goodison once a fortnight is, compared to many other similar sized grounds, remarkably quick and straightforward. That suggests that, despite BMD currently likely being less well served to funnel people away, that it's not going to be a huge problem to overcome.
Click to expand...
For the first game at BMD I'd set off early and say expect me when you see me for getting home.
 
Catfish Blues said:
It's a fair question, and what we've seen so far from the club on transport is sketchy to say the least, but, as @RobSpurs says, there'll be a transport plan.

Also, you have to bear in mind, that the dispersal of around 39,000 from around Goodison once a fortnight is, compared to many other similar sized grounds, remarkably quick and straightforward. That suggests that, despite BMD currently likely being less well served to funnel people away, that it's not going to be a huge problem to overcome.
Click to expand...

Transport is a major issue for any new venue. Goodison does quite well in terms of dispersal rates, but being much further inland it has many more traffic lanes serving it in several directions. This cannot be matched at a waterfront site. Therefore it is very important that the links to the city centre/northern line is of mass transit capacity. They stipulated that the transport mode proportions need to be reversed from those at GP to make it work. It is currently 60:40 private:public transport. I would think that BMD would need to be far higher public:private transport than just 60:40 to avoid total grid lock.
 
Tom Hughes said:
Transport is a major issue for any new venue. Goodison does quite well in terms of dispersal rates, but being much further inland it has many more traffic lanes serving it in several directions. This cannot be matched at a waterfront site. Therefore it is very important that the links to the city centre/northern line is of mass transit capacity. They stipulated that the transport mode proportions need to be reversed from those at GP to make it work. It is currently 60:40 private:public transport. I would think that BMD would need to be far higher public:private transport than just 60:40 to avoid total grid lock.
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I think an additional station in between Sandhills and Moore fields would help.
 

GwladysPhil said:
I think an additional station in between Sandhills and Moore fields would help.
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Yes, definitely would, as the distance to Sandhills is no closer than Kirkdale is to Goodison. It will also require another mass transit system on its own segregated route (like the trackless tram proposals) to help shift those numbers too. The problem is finding that lane space on either the dock road, Great Howard St, Vauxhall Rd or on a new road through the dock estate itself. A basic two track line or loop to say Mann Island would be a 3-3.5 mile round trip. 3 tram sets could probably provide a service of up to 12 trams per hr into town. (Or 3,600 passengers per hr). Merseyrail on the northern line would be about 6,000 passenger per hr in either direction. 15,000 per hr total excluding shuttle buses is a long way short of dispersing the whole capacity in one hr, but it would go some way to averting grid lock if too many use private transport.

Shame it's not clarence dock with the much shorter walking distances to town.
 
Tom Hughes said:
The size of concourse is one factor. The other is the size of the treads. You cannot fit double the number of people if the tread depths are too small, meaning you cannot fit two rows of people into a converted seated row..... and for many of those tightly rowed stands the ratio will never be more than 1:1.

The other issues are sizes of vomitories, number of turnstiles and exits, and the design of access stairways etc. As regards the Park end, extending it or adding another tier will provide further concourse areas to accommodate any increased capacity there.... so it wouldn't be an issue.
Click to expand...

Of course they would add another concourse with a stand, I was trying to make my point visual.

2 standing rows over seated row is possible, they do it at Dortmund, but only if it's designed in from the start. That's kinda my point.

You cant have 58k in a space designed for 52k, but you can have 52k in a space designed for 58k.

I'm assuming you were agreeing with me here....
 
Jacko93 said:
Of course they would add another concourse with a stand, I was trying to make my point visual.

2 standing rows over seated row is possible, they do it at Dortmund, but only if it's designed in from the start. That's kinda my point.

You cant have 58k in a space designed for 52k, but you can have 52k in a space designed for 58k.

I'm assuming you were agreeing with me here....
Click to expand...

I was just saying that rail seats put into sections that have treads less than 800mm will not be allowed to increase their capacity (certainly not 2:1), as you need 700mm clear depth to do that and the rail/seat usually takes up at least 100mm of that. Hence many existing stands would never see any increase without reprofilling each row to the required minimum depth. At Dortmund the South tribune's lower section is converted into a traditional terrace (crush barriers regularly spaced) and the rear rows are rail seats.
 
Jacko93 said:
Of course they would add another concourse with a stand, I was trying to make my point visual.

2 standing rows over seated row is possible, they do it at Dortmund, but only if it's designed in from the start. That's kinda my point.

You cant have 58k in a space designed for 52k, but you can have 52k in a space designed for 58k.

I'm assuming you were agreeing with me here....
Click to expand...
I think in the home end the steps will be deep enough for 2 people to stand once seat is removed
 

Tom Hughes said:
I was just saying that rail seats put into sections that have treads less than 800mm will not be allowed to increase their capacity (certainly not 2:1), as you need 700mm clear depth to do that and the rail/seat usually takes up at least 100mm of that. Hence many existing stands would never see any increase without reprofilling each row to the required minimum depth. At Dortmund the South tribune's lower section is converted into a traditional terrace (crush barriers regularly spaced) and the rear rows are rail seats.
Click to expand...

I know your discussion relates to converting stands rather than BMD, but, given the thread's about a new stadium, it's worth pointing out that the club's images have shown a row depth of 750mm for the areas pencilled in for rail seating.

Ferco's rail seats ( just as an example ), have a depth of 50mm when not in use, which suggests that someone involved in the project has done their homework


layou8-1024x578.png


railseatdims.png
 

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