New Everton Stadium

[The binman chronicles]

As ever, the crush or slowing only occurs at the actual pinch points, not in the open space, however big they are (a bit like closing lanes on a motorway, congestion soon ensues if flows aren't maintained). In this case a few relatively narrow openings in the dock wall. Their size will dictate how quickly the site can empty. First impressions suggest that that will be akin to emptying a full Goodison plus another 14,000 fans via say Gwladys street and City road only. With the added complication of having to channel 3-8k away fans through the same routes.

Keeping a proportion of fans behind longer is desirable for several reasons such as: further income streams and to relieving pressure on public transport and road networks etc. I can remember suggesting it to the stadium manager years ago.... he said they had trialled it at some point but the response wasn't great and that even the lounges emptied quite quickly after night games. So the onus is on designing for safe and effective eggress for the worst case scenario of (for instance) a night cup game.

Some grounds are notorious for people leaving early..... this is often because of the issue of poor egress/public transport. So it is another major issue to consider.

You are right that there will be a pinch point at the dock wall, but I don't think I will be as bad as you think. At Goodison you have narrow concourses/exits leading out to minor roads. The congestion there will be worse than anything at BM despite only being able to exit via one main route. The east stand and south east corner will have a pretty straight run out and the majority of that stand (the ones that don't want to stay that is) will have already left the fan plaza and be out on the super wide Regent Rd by the time the bulk of the west stand occupants start to hit the FP.

With the large area under the outdoor steps on the west stand and plenty of space in the plaza to stand aside and let the rush go by will also aid that process.

 

[AsiaAsia82]

Have small pedestrian footbridges over the dock wall been considered for increasing access? maybe at each corner point? Could offer alternate exits over the protected wall

 

[tommytowne]

As ever, the crush or slowing only occurs at the actual pinch points, not in the open space, however big they are (a bit like closing lanes on a motorway, congestion soon ensues if flows aren't maintained). In this case a few relatively narrow openings in the dock wall. Their size will dictate how quickly the site can empty. First impressions suggest that that will be akin to emptying a full Goodison plus another 14,000 fans via say Gwladys street and City road only. With the added complication of having to channel 3-8k away fans through the same routes.

Keeping a proportion of fans behind longer is desirable for several reasons such as: further income streams and to relieving pressure on public transport and road networks etc. I can remember suggesting it to the stadium manager years ago.... he said they had trialled it at some point but the response wasn't great and that even the lounges emptied quite quickly after night games. So the onus is on designing for safe and effective eggress for the worst case scenario of (for instance) a night cup game.

Some grounds are notorious for people leaving early..... this is often because of the issue of poor egress/public transport. So it is another major issue to consider.

Your last sentence is a major point and would probably affect me.
At the moment if I'm not in my car and on Queens Drive by 1700 I can add 45 minutes on my journey home. I'm more than happy to hang back after the game if the facilities are there.
There are some interesting proposals being thought up regards public transport and of course the roads in the area as a whole.

 

[Tom Hughes]

You are right that there will be a pinch point at the dock wall, but I don't think I will be as bad as you think. At Goodison you have narrow concourses/exits leading out to minor roads. The congestion there will be worse than anything at BM despite only being able to exit via one main route. The east stand and south east corner will have a pretty straight run out and the majority of that stand (the ones that don't want to stay that is) will have already left the fan plaza and be out on the super wide Regent Rd by the time the bulk of the west stand occupants start to hit the FP.

With the large area under the outdoor steps on the west stand and plenty of space in the plaza to stand aside and let the rush go by will also aid that process.

When asked at one of the consultations about a 60k+ capacity, it was remarked by Colin Chong that modelling of access and egress indicated that 53k was pushing the limits for comfortable people movement/circulation. That may have been a cop-out to justify the choice of lower capacity.... I then asked if that meant that future expansion or increased capacity via safestanding were then non-starters...... they seemed a bit non-committal.

The external walkways at BMD on 3 sides are not significantly wider than those around GP, furthermore the capacity on each side at BMD is greater than the respective sides at GP....but with no side streets to relieve pressure and/or offer alternative routes in multiple directions away from the site. I'm not saying that there are no pinch points at GP, but that if you find it slow/congested leaving the present site I'm not sure it will be better at BMD which is essentilly in a cul de sac. That's before looking at potential clash with away fans and the on-going journeys.

 

[The binman chronicles]

When asked at one of the consultations about a 60k+ capacity, it was remarked by Colin Chong that modelling of access and egress indicated that 53k was pushing the limits for comfortable people movement/circulation. That may have been a cop-out to justify the choice of lower capacity.... I then asked if that meant that future expansion or increased capacity via safestanding were then non-starters...... they seemed a bit non-committal.

The external walkways at BMD on 3 sides are not significantly wider than those around GP, furthermore the capacity on each side at BMD is greater than the respective sides at GP....but with no side streets to relieve pressure and/or offer alternative routes in multiple directions away from the site. I'm not saying that there are no pinch points at GP, but that if you find it slow/congested leaving the present site I'm not sure it will be better at BMD which is essentilly in a cul de sac. That's before looking at potential clash with away fans and the on-going journeys.

20k of Goodison is fed by 2 roads (although bullens has the 2 side streets), if you look on a map and see the footprint there will be a huge increase at BM in space on both side stands to be able to mill about. We can only see how it is when we get there. I think the first game will be chaos as everyone will stay until the end but it will settle down thereafter. When the southern exits are available it will clear it up even further.

Of course if you get loads of people just hanging around on regents road right by the exits or they build something on the plaza that takes away a lot of the space then I would take a different viewpoint.

 

[allen]

Have small pedestrian footbridges over the dock wall been considered for increasing access? maybe at each corner point? Could offer alternate exits over the protected wall

Judging by the planning documents, we're going to punch three extra holes in the dock wall (and if I'm reading the document correctly relay the removed stone on the ground at these points, which is a nice touch) - circled in green:

That gives 6 entrance / exit points (counting the southernmost entrance as 2).

 

[toffee-boy]

You are right that there will be a pinch point at the dock wall, but I don't think I will be as bad as you think. At Goodison you have narrow concourses/exits leading out to minor roads. The congestion there will be worse than anything at BM despite only being able to exit via one main route. The east stand and south east corner will have a pretty straight run out and the majority of that stand (the ones that don't want to stay that is) will have already left the fan plaza and be out on the super wide Regent Rd by the time the bulk of the west stand occupants start to hit the FP.

With the large area under the outdoor steps on the west stand and plenty of space in the plaza to stand aside and let the rush go by will also aid that process.

I think the idea as well is to have bars and facilities inside to encourage people to stay at BMD, prob have tv;'s reshowing the game or the late kick off's, so people will spend more money and also that people will slowly drift out of the area.

 

[dockroad]

Judging by the planning documents, we're going to punch three extra holes in the dock wall (and if I'm reading the document correctly relay the removed stone on the ground at these points, which is a nice touch) - circled in green:

View attachment 136398

That gives 6 entrance / exit points (counting the southernmost entrance as 2).

Well done ,I've been looking for that plan myself. I knew there was going to be more entrances/exits.

 

[BNJ1878]

The aim is to make money. They'll do whatever they can to encourage people to hang around for up to 2 hrs after the game.

Also, pretty sure the rest of the development (Liverpool Waters) will now pick up pace. They are planning a promenade along the front, past the dockers clock. (Bring your big coat.) There will be a few bars and whatnot on the ground floor of new projects between Nelson and Waterloo docks. These will take 3/5 years, maybe a bit longer but they're coming. There's also bound to be new options over the East side of Regent Road. The whole area will get an uplift.

People will develop a new routine within the first 10/15 games. Some may still leave 5 mins early. Some will soilder on with their Goodison routine. (I can't imagine pre-match NOT being in the Black Horse tbh) Yes, we'll moan like hell about it but we'll all figure out what works for us/our group of mates.

 

[Jacko93]

One thing that does ease egress slightly, is that everybody will be heading in vaguely the same direction as they exit the stadium. While side streets do offer a relief of capacity, they can disrupt flow and progress as people navigate towards them.

There are clear challenges with the location, but its not something that hasn't been considered. Also, as the neighbouring docks undergo development, passages will open up to enable other routes into town.

 

[dublinbluenose]

 

[Davideeyore]

Have small pedestrian footbridges over the dock wall been considered for increasing access? maybe at each corner point? Could offer alternate exits over the protected wall

In the surveys and the website i've suggested this several times. A sort of Wembley Way. Especially if a train station was built.

 

[Tom Hughes]

20k of Goodison is fed by 2 roads (although bullens has the 2 side streets), if you look on a map and see the footprint there will be a huge increase at BM in space on both side stands to be able to mill about. We can only see how it is when we get there. I think the first game will be chaos as everyone will stay until the end but it will settle down thereafter. When the southern exits are available it will clear it up even further.

Of course if you get loads of people just hanging around on regents road right by the exits or they build something on the plaza that takes away a lot of the space then I would take a different viewpoint.

I'm not sure what you mean about 20k on 2 streets. Goodison Rd alone has 8 side streets running perpendicular to it along the length of the mainstand. This splits into 2 going northwards, one onto city road again with multiple routes off those going east and west towards Walton Lane or County Rd and multiple southwards at the junction with Spellow. The Bullens has 4 potential routes to Walton Lane via Gwladys St, Murial and Diana Sts or southwards directly. The Parkend empties onto either, or through the fan park directly onto Walton Lane. It's by no means perfect but combined they represent dispersal in all directions via every corner of the site, over far wider access routes than a few relatively narrow apertures through the dockwall. Of course that is only the intial phase of just leaving the site.... Yes, a river-side walk southwards via new bridges may be an alternative option if the NIMBY's don't have their way.... and weather permitting..... but again i don't think this can match the immediate site dispersal rate at GP. That's before comparing the numbers of major roads/public-transport capacity serving the respective sites for the secondary phase or onward journeys.

 

[Bunner]

Does anybody remember if somebody posted on here about the heavy plant being delivered to the site in mid-September?

 

[The binman chronicles]

I'm not sure what you mean about 20k on 2 streets. Goodison Rd alone has 8 side streets running perpendicular to it along the length of the mainstand. This splits into 2 going northwards, one onto city road again with multiple routes off those going east and west towards Walton Lane or County Rd and multiple southwards at the junction with Spellow. The Bullens has 4 potential routes to Walton Lane via Gwladys St, Murial and Diana Sts or southwards directly. The Parkend empties onto either, or through the fan park directly onto Walton Lane. It's by no means perfect but combined they represent dispersal in all directions via every corner of the site, over far wider access routes than a few relatively narrow apertures through the dockwall. Of course that is only the intial phase of just leaving the site.... Yes, a river-side walk southwards via new bridges may be an alternative option if the NIMBY's don't have their way.... and weather permitting..... but again i don't think this can match the immediate site dispersal rate at GP. That's before comparing the numbers of major roads/public-transport capacity serving the respective sites for the secondary phase or onward journeys.

I mean Bullens and Gwladys, both stands hold 10k each, one has 2 ways to disperse the other has 4, but all pretty tight and there's congestion just getting out on to the street.

I don't think the average match goer will notice a bigger issue than at Goodison. But as always the proof is in the pudding, when it's built we'll know for sure.