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New Everton Stadium

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I thought that as well at the beginning but we're not going to take 10,000 seats and turn them in to 20,000 standing to hit 62k. Besides other clubs can introduce SS too.

They can, but they wouldn't have designed the stadium to cope with any increase. Stadiums have been built over the last however many years to cope with the seated capacity, nothing more. BMD has been designed to hold a higher capacity than there are seats, meaning that any increase in ratio allowance can be fully taken advantage of. Also the depth of the treads will allow double rows like at Dortmund. Standing requires 350mm tread depth per person, the tread depth at BMD is 750mm, with 50mm taken by the seating system.
 
It might well be. Certainly for some of the factors you mention. It's all probably a bit subjective tbh, and difficult to assess definitively, as there are a broad range of capacities of stadia in the Prem, and there are other criteria to consider too.... I mean, how do you compare Old Trafford to say the Vitality? Yet Bournemouth might be able to say that their stadium fits their needs better than Man Utd's famous old stadium does theirs? People will have a range perspectives and prioritise some of those criteria quite differently. What about atmosphere? Affordability (for club to build and fans to buy tickets)? Transport/accessibility? Getting to and from stadia is definitely a major part of "the match-day experience" for most fans. Surrounding facilities may also be a major issue for others. Some fans/clubs/observers may place a far greater onus on the value of history and tradition. Glasgow Rangers for instance completely remodelled Ibrox, yet the old mainstand is still their centre-piece stand. Similar for little old Fulham at their waterfront museum piece. So all in all, it can be a difficult thing to measure objectively.

NWHL and the Emirates are amongst the newest of the rest, so they're probably a fairly direct comparison. Of course, they both win on capacity. Their corporate capacities are also much bigger, with 80 and 120+ boxes respectively, with whole corporate tiers at optimum viewing distances/elevation for greater exclusivity etc. So their matchday income versus cost and ROI probably beats ours too. For many, the Emirates probably overdid that aspect. The resultant fragmentation created by a continous corporate tier on all sides, plus the relatively low upper tier capacity has famously (adversely) affected the atmosphere. Arsenal would probably argue that they needed that amount of corporate to pay for it. I think there are plans afoot to remedy that at one end, by continuing the upper tier downwards and losing the corporate/boxes at that end.... but not sure if that'll happen. The lower tier (which is almost half the total capacity) is also quite shallow and distant too, making it not great when everyone stands. Spurs wanted to iron out some of the Emirates failings at NWHL. They wanted a similar corporate capacity, but with better proportions and the ubiquitous large home end (kop derivative), to help bolster the atmosphere. This they seem to have mostly achieved. The facilities are probably better than anywhere and they are generally closer to the pitch than at the Emirates, with safe-standing incorporated. They also have the added facility of a moving pitch, which greatly increases the versatility of the stadium to host other events all year round. As far as I've heard, the large South stand, though noisy, hasn't been quite the atmospheric cauldron intended. Some mentioning the high airy roof not quite harnessing the sound etc. I was a bit surprised that they didn't try to better emulate their famous shelf by putting a large lower tier on the East side for the more vociferous to gather, as at WHL.... but I suppose the desire to maximise corporate on the sides won out.

Personally, I've never been overly bothered about stadium externals myself. Some of the greatest stadia in the world are surprisingly plain, functional or even brutally austere on the outside. For me stadia are probably the only building type that are always best judged internally. For the most part, the external facade adds little to nothing to the matchday experience for me. Inside is always the defining factor. That is where we spend the most time. That is where the TV cameras all focus and where all the important stuff happens. It's also how we best recognise most stadia. How those internal tiers are arranged to bring us all closer to the action, with various viewing angles/offers etc. How we all interact with that arrangement to create the atmosphere etc are the really important design features. The external architecture and even the setting have no influence on any of that... they are the frills or "nice-to-haves" as far as I'm concerned. For instance, if you put Prenton Park on Bramley Moore dock and rebuilt a facsimile of Albert dock warehouses around it, it would still be Prenton Park inside. Perhaps Brighton fans would say their contryside setting is more aesthetically pleasing.... ?

It's fair to say that BMD probably trumps the rest in terms of external aesthetics and setting..... but it has come at a cost. Internally, NWHL is for the most part more impressive. However, as Meis says, it is in many ways more similar to the large NFL stadia than the traditional British stadia. Sometimes less is more. The much simpler BMD bowl should better lend itself to greater acoustic unity than both North London stadia for a greater "whole-stadium" atmosphere. So yes, overall, it could well be the best when completed.

Of course, other stadia are still likely to change/grow in the years to come.... St James's will be 60k+ in the next few years. Anfield and the Etihad may well get to 65-70k in years to come so, future-proofing might be a further factor to consider.
Good post Tom. Balanced and informative. Bravo 👏
 
It might well be. Certainly for some of the factors you mention. It's all probably a bit subjective tbh, and difficult to assess definitively, as there are a broad range of capacities of stadia in the Prem, and there are other criteria to consider too.... I mean, how do you compare Old Trafford to say the Vitality? Yet Bournemouth might be able to say that their stadium fits their needs better than Man Utd's famous old stadium does theirs? People will have a range perspectives and prioritise some of those criteria quite differently. What about atmosphere? Affordability (for club to build and fans to buy tickets)? Transport/accessibility? Getting to and from stadia is definitely a major part of "the match-day experience" for most fans. Surrounding facilities may also be a major issue for others. Some fans/clubs/observers may place a far greater onus on the value of history and tradition. Glasgow Rangers for instance completely remodelled Ibrox, yet the old mainstand is still their centre-piece stand. Similar for little old Fulham at their waterfront museum piece. So all in all, it can be a difficult thing to measure objectively.

NWHL and the Emirates are amongst the newest of the rest, so they're probably a fairly direct comparison. Of course, they both win on capacity. Their corporate capacities are also much bigger, with 80 and 120+ boxes respectively, with whole corporate tiers at optimum viewing distances/elevation for greater exclusivity etc. So their matchday income versus cost and ROI probably beats ours too. For many, the Emirates probably overdid that aspect. The resultant fragmentation created by a continous corporate tier on all sides, plus the relatively low upper tier capacity has famously (adversely) affected the atmosphere. Arsenal would probably argue that they needed that amount of corporate to pay for it. I think there are plans afoot to remedy that at one end, by continuing the upper tier downwards and losing the corporate/boxes at that end.... but not sure if that'll happen. The lower tier (which is almost half the total capacity) is also quite shallow and distant too, making it not great when everyone stands. Spurs wanted to iron out some of the Emirates failings at NWHL. They wanted a similar corporate capacity, but with better proportions and the ubiquitous large home end (kop derivative), to help bolster the atmosphere. This they seem to have mostly achieved. The facilities are probably better than anywhere and they are generally closer to the pitch than at the Emirates, with safe-standing incorporated. They also have the added facility of a moving pitch, which greatly increases the versatility of the stadium to host other events all year round. As far as I've heard, the large South stand, though noisy, hasn't been quite the atmospheric cauldron intended. Some mentioning the high airy roof not quite harnessing the sound etc. I was a bit surprised that they didn't try to better emulate their famous shelf by putting a large lower tier on the East side for the more vociferous to gather, as at WHL.... but I suppose the desire to maximise corporate on the sides won out.

Personally, I've never been overly bothered about stadium externals myself. Some of the greatest stadia in the world are surprisingly plain, functional or even brutally austere on the outside. For me stadia are probably the only building type that are always best judged internally. For the most part, the external facade adds little to nothing to the matchday experience for me. Inside is always the defining factor. That is where we spend the most time. That is where the TV cameras all focus and where all the important stuff happens. It's also how we best recognise most stadia. How those internal tiers are arranged to bring us all closer to the action, with various viewing angles/offers etc. How we all interact with that arrangement to create the atmosphere etc are the really important design features. The external architecture and even the setting have no influence on any of that... they are the frills or "nice-to-haves" as far as I'm concerned. For instance, if you put Prenton Park on Bramley Moore dock and rebuilt a facsimile of Albert dock warehouses around it, it would still be Prenton Park inside. Perhaps Brighton fans would say their contryside setting is more aesthetically pleasing.... ?

It's fair to say that BMD probably trumps the rest in terms of external aesthetics and setting..... but it has come at a cost. Internally, NWHL is for the most part more impressive. However, as Meis says, it is in many ways more similar to the large NFL stadia than the traditional British stadia. Sometimes less is more. The much simpler BMD bowl should better lend itself to greater acoustic unity than both North London stadia for a greater "whole-stadium" atmosphere. So yes, overall, it could well be the best when completed.

Of course, other stadia are still likely to change/grow in the years to come.... St James's will be 60k+ in the next few years. Anfield and the Etihad may well get to 65-70k in years to come so, future-proofing might be a further factor to consider.

Just something to add to this, as its a really important point. I remember being in conversation with an E-sports team, they were looking to build their own E-Sports stadium, they were fed up with Architects designing fancy stadiums for them, spending money on complicated structural designs or expensive facades. They simply came in with a single spec.... A big box, full of tech and connectable to all who enter it.

With stadia, exterior design is all about the architect showing off, the interior is more about the experience, and allowing the fans/team to show what they can do. That's the important bit.
 
It’s no wonder people say you are negative about BMD Tom. It’s far easier to expand BMD. There’s no doubt about that, yet you defaulted to saying how St. James and Anfield could be done, but the difficulties in doing BMD.

There is a big issue with the Gallowgate in terms of the local underground line etc. They have decided to build a fanzone there rather than expand it. They are looking at the possibility of expanding the east stand but that looks fairly futile. Very expensive for limited gain.

Liverpool would need to buy a few rows of housing for the SKD or move a pretty major road for the Kop. Both of these are massively complex and the club has shown no desire to tackle these issues.

Not negative at all.... I try to back up any reservations/concerns with facts, figures or direct comparisons. The main ones being relating to finances, which i think have proved to be well founded. The club themselves said that it was tight modelling 60k movement in/out and around the dock site.... and the planning permission was only granted after the height reduction! So it's hardly a given.... that's before you consider the costs.

Whereas St James's expansion has been planned for years. The area above the underground station at the Gallowgate end was always going to be redeveloped and would've been years ago if the stadium/casino project had happened, or had Ashley not taken over and profiteered from the site in question. The last owner of that site was planning a major high rise development, so building on there was never an issue. They haven't bought that site back just to put a fanzone on it. That is only the short term scheme while considering their options.... the stadium is already in the city centre and has almost endless amenities on its doorstep including a bar built into the stand itself. So there is no major issue at all for them to get to 60k just by reworking that end, with plans long drawn up. With recent reports of them even looking at the east stand getting a rebuild. Not to mention the fact that the existing 52,500 is fully paid for and they're loaded. The only issue for them is if 60k+ meets their ambitions....!

As regards LFC. They've had no real problems obtaining planning permission or getting CPOs issued to expand their footprint thus far. Included for listed buildings and building on a listed Victorian park. They don't necessarily need to expand the depth of the Kop if increased ratios are allowed and/or if they better utilise the corners than they currently do. They may have painted themselves into a corner, but they always seem to come up smelling of roses, so I wouldn't say any expansion wasn't possible for them any more.
 

Not negative at all.... I try to back up any reservations/concerns with facts, figures or direct comparisons. The main ones being relating to finances, which i think have proved to be well founded. The club themselves said that it was tight modelling 60k movement in/out and around the dock site.... and the planning permission was only granted after the height reduction! So it's hardly a given.... that's before you consider the costs.

Whereas St James's expansion has been planned for years. The area above the underground station at the Gallowgate end was always going to be redeveloped and would've been years ago if the stadium/casino project had happened, or had Ashley not taken over and profiteered from the site in question. The last owner of that site was planning a major high rise development, so building on there was never an issue. They haven't bought that site back just to put a fanzone on it. That is only the short term scheme while considering their options.... the stadium is already in the city centre and has almost endless amenities on its doorstep including a bar built into the stand itself. So there is no major issue at all for them to get to 60k just by reworking that end, with plans long drawn up. With recent reports of them even looking at the east stand getting a rebuild. Not to mention the fact that the existing 52,500 is fully paid for and they're loaded. The only issue for them is if 60k+ meets their ambitions....!

As regards LFC. They've had no real problems obtaining planning permission or getting CPOs issued to expand their footprint thus far. Included for listed buildings and building on a listed Victorian park. They don't necessarily need to expand the depth of the Kop if increased ratios are allowed and/or if they better utilise the corners than they currently do. They may have painted themselves into a corner, but they always seem to come up smelling of roses, so I wouldn't say any expansion wasn't possible for them any more.
Good grief
 

See the daily fail written a load o Bullsheet that the stadium is no where near completion and may mean we will stuck at Goodison for another 2-3 seasons.


Feel dirty just posting this tripe
Embarrassing journalism even by the Daily Fail's standards
 
See the daily fail written a load o Bullsheet that the stadium is no where near completion and may mean we will stuck at Goodison for another 2-3 seasons.


Feel dirty just posting this tripe
Got as far as the headline.

Of course it's not completed after 2 years, it's a Stadium built on "water", not a flatpack wardrobe from IKEA.
 
See the daily fail written a load o Bullsheet that the stadium is no where near completion and may mean we will stuck at Goodison for another 2-3 seasons.


Feel dirty just posting this tripe
As soon as read the headline, I just knew it woukd be BS. Didn't give them the satisfaction of my click
 

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