Roberto Martinez discussion

[Seamus Colemole]

Nice that those of us who never wanted him sacked have the decent manager we had 2 seasons ago back and not some tit like Tim sherwood.

 

[bluestevon]

There is a lot of similarities between Kendall and Martinez. In his book he writes about having a young team in the early 80's, and even though we struggled he knew they would only get better. It's the same for us and Martinez.

From memory we only had 3 players over 24 at the start of the 84-85 season, Gray, Reid and Southall - hardly counts as he was a keeper though and 26 was more like 22-23 for a outfield player.

When you think back on it that was an incredibly young team and maybe Martinez's model for what he is aiming at

Now if only we had a Southall in this team... Or a Steven

 

[ijjysmith]

No more short-sighted than starting a poll after a defeat.

There's plenty on here who have backed him throughout, so not sure how we are being short-sighted. Posting polls after a defeat and vanishing after a win is far more short-sighted, imo.

Suppose so yeah.

You'd get different results if you polled it though I reckon.

Maybe do it after a meaningless draw!

 

[Dithering Dougie]

No more short-sighted than starting a poll after a defeat.

There's plenty on here who have backed him throughout, so not sure how we are being short-sighted. Posting polls after a defeat and vanishing after a win is far more short-sighted, imo.

My favourites are the ones who've been deconstructing every performance to fit an agenda they had against Martinez but are now beginning to see certain facets of play that others have been pointing out all along, kind of like they're still trying to justify themselves and their superior football knowledge while keeping a foot in both camps.

It's very funny.

 

[bluestevon]

It's interesting that you compare us to Liverpool because we originally set-up exactly the same against Chelsea as Liverpool did against Utd with 3 defensive midfielders and Kone/Ings on the right with Firmino/Barkley in the middle.

Had we lost the same questions would be getting asked of Martinez as they are now Rodgers. It's a sign that both managers aren't 100% confident at that point. The biggest positive is our players are regaining their confidence so now all we need is the for the manager to do likewise. Bringing on Naismith as opposed to someone else was a good first step so hopefully it will continue against Swansea.

The ruck after the game with Mourinho was also a pretty big step in the right direction.

Clueless, utterly clueless

 

[bluestevon]

My favourites are the ones who've been deconstructing every performance to fit an agenda they had against Martinez but are now begin get to see certain facets of play that others have been pointing out all along, kind of like they're still trying to justify themselves and their superior football knowledge while keeping a foot in both camps.

It's very funny.

Far as i can see we aren't as good as we looked against Chelsea and Saints and not as bad as we looked against Watford or Spurs, a young team still evolving, a manager whose tactics are still evolving, we will get their though hopefully sooner than later

 

[mythbuster]

My favourites are the ones who've been deconstructing every performance to fit an agenda they had against Martinez but are now beginning to see certain facets of play that others have been pointing out all along, kind of like they're still trying to justify themselves and their superior football knowledge while keeping a foot in both camps.

It's very funny.

Yup, thankfully, there's plenty of us Doug, who just get on with supporting the team, rather than second guessing every decision the gaffer makes.

It's the internet age; millions of footy fans jump off FIFA to let the world know how they would do things different. It's why we have scapegoats, imo.

 

[catcherintherye]

From memory we only had 3 players over 24 at the start of the 84-85 season, Gray, Reid and Southall - hardly counts as he was a keeper though and 26 was more like 22-23 for a outfield player.

When you think back on it that was an incredibly young team and maybe Martinez's model for what he is aiming at

Now if only we had a Southall in this team... Or a Steven

Southall was the one world class player in that team. I think if you could take anyone out of that team and put them into ours it would obviously be Southall.

Having said that I do think Andy Gray would be amazing with this group for his presence in the dressing room.

 

[catcherintherye]

It's interesting that you compare us to Liverpool because we originally set-up exactly the same against Chelsea as Liverpool did against Utd with 3 defensive midfielders and Kone/Ings on the right with Firmino/Barkley in the middle.

Had we lost the same questions would be getting asked of Martinez as they are now Rodgers. It's a sign that both managers aren't 100% confident at that point. The biggest positive is our players are regaining their confidence so now all we need is the for the manager to do likewise. Bringing on Naismith as opposed to someone else was a good first step so hopefully it will continue against Swansea.

The ruck after the game with Mourinho was also a pretty big step in the right direction.

Well Liverpool were playing square pegs in round holes. We looked far more balanced in the set up. I think this comes down to what I was saying though, which is we have used mainly two formations with some fairly consistent principles through the last three years. Rodgers have aborted tactics at the first time of trouble over and over again, and hoped to paper over the cracks.

If you look at Liverpool their defence isn't good enough, so they play 3 uncreative central midfielders in front of them to compensate. They weren't able to adapt to Rodgers passing game, so he gives them license to hoof the ball forward. There comes a point when players have to take responsibility and you can't build systems around covering for their shortfalls.

 

[mythbuster]

Well Liverpool were playing square pegs in round holes. We looked far more balanced in the set up. I think this comes down to what I was saying though, which is we have used mainly two formations with some fairly consistent principles through the last three years. Rodgers have aborted tactics at the first time of trouble over and over again, and hoped to paper over the cracks.

If you look at Liverpool their defence isn't good enough, so they play 3 uncreative central midfielders in front of them to compensate. They weren't able to adapt to Rodgers passing game, so he gives them license to hoof the ball forward. There comes a point when players have to take responsibility and you can't build systems around covering for their shortfalls.

People complained about the 4-2-3-1 formation, with McCarthy and Barry.

People complained about Naismith and no 'wingers'

People complained about us starting Besic v Chelsea and going 4-3-3

People said Besic going off forced Bobby's hand into going more attacking (this being why we won.) and going 4-2-3-1 with McCarthy. Barry and Naismith.

I worry about some people, I really do.

 

[bluestevon]

Southall was the one world class player in that team. I think if you could take anyone out of that team and put them into ours it would obviously be Southall.

Having said that I do think Andy Gray would be amazing with this group for his presence in the dressing room.

No doubt whatsoever that Southall was one of the top 2 or 3 keepers in the world mate, and their was a lot of very good keepers around back then too. Personally would say Ratcliffe was a world class cb myself, and my own opinion and maybe biased as he was one of my all time favourite players but think Steven was as well

 

[jazzy]

As I have said fairly consistently through last season, that was a formative experience for Martinez, but it was the formative experience he was always going to have and in some ways needed to have.

Developing a new system, a new way of playing is always a challenging process. Given he had a lot of older players (some of them have been moved on) you could see he would run into difficulties. I can see that we have emerged at the other side of them now, and we have emerged stronger than before. We now have players who have bought into his way of playing, or alternatively players he himself has recruited to play in his system. Those who couldn't adapt, were unable to or didn't feel it necessary have been moved on.

There is a sense of calm and continuity that I liked about Moyes and I also like about Martinez. In his transfer dealings he rarely panics with signings and keeps the level of recruits we have per season at a manageable level. This was another quality of Moyes. We would add 1-2 to the squad each season in terms of transfers, and 1-2 would improve to be ready to step into the fray. Think how long Jagielka and Baines waited until they were eased in when the team allowed it.

Martinez is similar to this. We saw it last season with Stones, in season one with Barkley, this season with Galloway and Browning. He hasn't managed to acquire our much needed "number 10" but Martinez is able to see the bigger picture. He will not spend silly money on a player who isn't right for us. If you are building for the long term, what is another 6-12 months to wait in order to get the right player.

This calmness is translated into his tactics. Much like Moyes before him he has a calm and clear approach to the game. While these approaches differ greatly and are criticised by some for being too stubborn I think it has benefitted us for Martinez to stick to his approach.

I look at Liverpool now and the Echo are their fans are rightly saying they have no idea what their "identity" or "philosophy" is. These were catchy words Rodgers used to go on about consistently yet have no completely disappeared. They have gone from being a possession team, to a counter attacking team, to a side that controlled the game with a deep lying playmaker, to a side that played with 3 at the back and were hard to beat, to a side now that lump the ball forward to a big oik Benteke.

What this leads to is a group of players who have no idea what they are meant to be doing. Players are brought in to do one job, then that changes the following season and again the following season. Martinez came in for some stick last year for not changing things at the first sign of trouble like Rodgers, but in the end he has changed it so much and so often they have no idea what his end goal is.

By sticking to our convictions we have been able to ascertain who does and doesn't fit that system and slowly see improvements. rather than questioning the method we can question the personnel and find the bets suitable players to fit it.

Beating Chelsea 3-1 at the weekend was not a fluke, and the Echo are correct to say that sort of win is two years in the making. I watched our defenders, be they the majestic Stones dribbling it past their attackers, but also Mori, Jagielka and also Galloway moving the ball out of defence and you realise you are watching something very special. We had tired and demoralised one of the nastiest and best attackers in the league (Costa) to the point that he couldn't chase us anymore. This was always Martinez's vision and we are slowly starting to see the benefits of it.

To arrive at this point has taken time and a fair bit of patience and endurance. It has meant giving game time to Barkley, Stones, Lukaku etc and persevering with them even when they were struggling. They are all ready to be match winners now on the biggest stage.

I think we are on the brink of something quite special under Martinez. I hope he and the players don't let us down!

An excellent , well written and thought out post much of which I agree with.

I really hope that your conclusion is correct

 

[jazzy]

No doubt whatsoever that Southall was one of the top 2 or 3 keepers in the world mate, and their was a lot of very good keepers around back then too. Personally would say Ratcliffe was a world class cb myself, and my own opinion and maybe biased as he was one of my all time favourite players but think Steven was as well

You cannot underestimate the impact of Peter Reid in that wonderful team

 

[bluestevon]

You cannot underestimate the impact of Peter Reid in that wonderful team

Could argue that Bracewell was the player that pushed us over the edge though mate

Reid and Gray where both masisve gambles from what i recall due to their fitness records that both paid off

 

[jazzy]

Reid and Bracewell were a wonderful midfield pairing - really complemented each other and the balance of Sheedy and Tricky - now that was a team