6 + 2 Point Deductions

They've labelled ours as higher tier breaches.

No idea how they've come to that if the bottom line is both clubs went over a threshold in the same time period.

They'll have a reason which is purely their opinion rather than anything tangible or factual. Fact is both clubs went over so should be treated the same and then mitigations should determine appeals

They haven't labelled ours as higher tier breaches.

Not picking on you, but it surprises me how much misinformation there is knocking about when the reports are there in public record for all 4 verdicts so far

Ignore the 10 point verdict for a moment as it served only to eventually settle on an approximate benchmark for PSR deductions once the appeal was heard.

To give you the very abridged versions:

Everton - 6 points. Appeal docs didn't originally state how this was calculated, but we were given no credit for any of our arguments as to mitigation. 6 points was deemed to be appropriate for a breach of that level (£19.5m). It was later revealed in the FY23 decision report that the Appeal Board in this case increased an initial three-point penalty (now accepted as the starting penalty for any PSR breach) by one point for every £6.5 million or so and that "a breach in the order of 20%' was deserving of an additional three points, or one point for every 6.67% over the Upper Loss Threshold"

Nottingham Forest - 4 points. The penalty itself was set at 6 points but Forest were credited 2 points back for early admission of guilt and exceptional co-operation. None of their other points of mitigation were accepted. The £34.5m breach was deemed to be "significant" by the commission who, because Forest's breach overlapped into their EFL years with lower thresholds, said "The Commission considers that it would assist to band breaches into “minor”, “significant” or “major” breaches, to remove the focus on the absolute number, especially when different PSR Thresholds can apply." They did assert that a starting point of three points would be the benchmark for ANY PSR penalty, with the additional points added based on the severity of the breach.

Everton - 2 points. The commission in this case rejected the Forest commission's methodology of banding breaches into categories. Instead they settled on a formula of 3 points for a breach (as per the Forest commission) but also rejected the formula used by the Everton FY22 appeal board of about £6.5m per point penalty. Instead they decided the breach here exceeded the Upper Loss Threshold by 15.8%. They believed that was less than “in the order of 20%” and meant an extra 3 points would be too much, so 2 points seemed the right amount to add onto the starting position of 3. The commission accepted the double jeopardy argument and said that since the latest FY23 losses were 51.6% of the overall PSR loss, they would deduct 2 points from the 5 based on the fact that they could only deal in whole numbers. We were then given credit for early admission and that, combined with the evidenced loss of revenue of the USM Finch Farm deal, was enough to constitute another point reduction, bringing it down to 2.

The major issue which sort of gets missed (because hundreds of pages of legal speak is too much for your average fan to want to digest) is that all 4 hearing outcomes have resulted in different methodologies applied when coming up with the penalty.
 
They haven't labelled ours as higher tier breaches.

Not picking on you, but it surprises me how much misinformation there is knocking about when the reports are there in public record for all 4 verdicts so far

Ignore the 10 point verdict for a moment as it served only to eventually settle on an approximate benchmark for PSR deductions once the appeal was heard.

To give you the very abridged versions:

Everton - 6 points. Appeal docs didn't originally state how this was calculated, but we were given no credit for any of our arguments as to mitigation. 6 points was deemed to be appropriate for a breach of that level (£19.5m). It was later revealed in the FY23 decision report that the Appeal Board in this case increased an initial three-point penalty (now accepted as the starting penalty for any PSR breach) by one point for every £6.5 million or so and that "a breach in the order of 20%' was deserving of an additional three points, or one point for every 6.67% over the Upper Loss Threshold"

Nottingham Forest - 4 points. The penalty itself was set at 6 points but Forest were credited 2 points back for early admission of guilt and exceptional co-operation. None of their other points of mitigation were accepted. The £34.5m breach was deemed to be "significant" by the commission who, because Forest's breach overlapped into their EFL years with lower thresholds, said "The Commission considers that it would assist to band breaches into “minor”, “significant” or “major” breaches, to remove the focus on the absolute number, especially when different PSR Thresholds can apply." They did assert that a starting point of three points would be the benchmark for ANY PSR penalty, with the additional points added based on the severity of the breach.

Everton - 2 points. The commission in this case rejected the Forest commission's methodology of banding breaches into categories. Instead they settled on a formula of 3 points for a breach (as per the Forest commission) but also rejected the formula used by the Everton FY22 appeal board of about £6.5m per point penalty. Instead they decided the breach here exceeded the Upper Loss Threshold by 15.8%. They believed that was less than “in the order of 20%” and meant an extra 3 points would be too much, so 2 points seemed the right amount to add onto the starting position of 3. The commission accepted the double jeopardy argument and said that since the latest FY23 losses were 51.6% of the overall PSR loss, they would deduct 2 points from the 5 based on the fact that they could only deal in whole numbers. We were then given credit for early admission and that, combined with the evidenced loss of revenue of the USM Finch Farm deal, was enough to constitute another point reduction, bringing it down to 2.

The major issue which sort of gets missed (because hundreds of pages of legal speak is too much for your average fan to want to digest) is that all 4 hearing outcomes have resulted in different methodologies applied when coming up with the penalty.
Yes. In summary, the Forest commission used a more generous sanction policy which did not have the £6.5m per point increases for the scale of the breach. Our latest commission rejected the approach of the Forest commission and gave us a higher starting deduction as a result. Totally inconsistent. I wonder if this puts Forest at risk of having their sanction increased, if their appeal commission takes account of our latest hearing?
 
They haven't labelled ours as higher tier breaches.

Not picking on you, but it surprises me how much misinformation there is knocking about when the reports are there in public record for all 4 verdicts so far

Ignore the 10 point verdict for a moment as it served only to eventually settle on an approximate benchmark for PSR deductions once the appeal was heard.

To give you the very abridged versions:

Everton - 6 points. Appeal docs didn't originally state how this was calculated, but we were given no credit for any of our arguments as to mitigation. 6 points was deemed to be appropriate for a breach of that level (£19.5m). It was later revealed in the FY23 decision report that the Appeal Board in this case increased an initial three-point penalty (now accepted as the starting penalty for any PSR breach) by one point for every £6.5 million or so and that "a breach in the order of 20%' was deserving of an additional three points, or one point for every 6.67% over the Upper Loss Threshold"

Nottingham Forest - 4 points. The penalty itself was set at 6 points but Forest were credited 2 points back for early admission of guilt and exceptional co-operation. None of their other points of mitigation were accepted. The £34.5m breach was deemed to be "significant" by the commission who, because Forest's breach overlapped into their EFL years with lower thresholds, said "The Commission considers that it would assist to band breaches into “minor”, “significant” or “major” breaches, to remove the focus on the absolute number, especially when different PSR Thresholds can apply." They did assert that a starting point of three points would be the benchmark for ANY PSR penalty, with the additional points added based on the severity of the breach.

Everton - 2 points. The commission in this case rejected the Forest commission's methodology of banding breaches into categories. Instead they settled on a formula of 3 points for a breach (as per the Forest commission) but also rejected the formula used by the Everton FY22 appeal board of about £6.5m per point penalty. Instead they decided the breach here exceeded the Upper Loss Threshold by 15.8%. They believed that was less than “in the order of 20%” and meant an extra 3 points would be too much, so 2 points seemed the right amount to add onto the starting position of 3. The commission accepted the double jeopardy argument and said that since the latest FY23 losses were 51.6% of the overall PSR loss, they would deduct 2 points from the 5 based on the fact that they could only deal in whole numbers. We were then given credit for early admission and that, combined with the evidenced loss of revenue of the USM Finch Farm deal, was enough to constitute another point reduction, bringing it down to 2.

The major issue which sort of gets missed (because hundreds of pages of legal speak is too much for your average fan to want to digest) is that all 4 hearing outcomes have resulted in different methodologies applied when coming up with the penalty.

Great post and thanks for summarising

I think this highlights all our frustrations, the lack of a framework that is applied consistently

Additionally if a club is spending unsustainably then surely the starting point should be to restrict their spending, so a transfer ban until the club is on more even keel, or a reduction in wage to income ratio is enforced until club allowed to recruit, i.e you need to sell players

The lack of framework gave license for the PL to be heavy handed to make an example of us
 
Yes. In summary, the Forest commission used a more generous sanction policy which did not have the £6.5m per point increases for the scale of the breach. Our latest commission rejected the approach of the Forest commission and gave us a higher starting deduction as a result. Totally inconsistent. I wonder if this puts Forest at risk of having their sanction increased, if their appeal commission takes account of our latest hearing?
It’s just illogical and plain barmy.

It should put Forest at risk of an increase, but it won’t as an entirely new panel with new made up rules and thought processes will sit to just drive the inconsistency forward.

One thing that is consistent however, there is a clear agenda against Everton fc.
 

They haven't labelled ours as higher tier breaches.

Not picking on you, but it surprises me how much misinformation there is knocking about when the reports are there in public record for all 4 verdicts so far

Ignore the 10 point verdict for a moment as it served only to eventually settle on an approximate benchmark for PSR deductions once the appeal was heard.

To give you the very abridged versions:

Everton - 6 points. Appeal docs didn't originally state how this was calculated, but we were given no credit for any of our arguments as to mitigation. 6 points was deemed to be appropriate for a breach of that level (£19.5m). It was later revealed in the FY23 decision report that the Appeal Board in this case increased an initial three-point penalty (now accepted as the starting penalty for any PSR breach) by one point for every £6.5 million or so and that "a breach in the order of 20%' was deserving of an additional three points, or one point for every 6.67% over the Upper Loss Threshold"

Nottingham Forest - 4 points. The penalty itself was set at 6 points but Forest were credited 2 points back for early admission of guilt and exceptional co-operation. None of their other points of mitigation were accepted. The £34.5m breach was deemed to be "significant" by the commission who, because Forest's breach overlapped into their EFL years with lower thresholds, said "The Commission considers that it would assist to band breaches into “minor”, “significant” or “major” breaches, to remove the focus on the absolute number, especially when different PSR Thresholds can apply." They did assert that a starting point of three points would be the benchmark for ANY PSR penalty, with the additional points added based on the severity of the breach.

Everton - 2 points. The commission in this case rejected the Forest commission's methodology of banding breaches into categories. Instead they settled on a formula of 3 points for a breach (as per the Forest commission) but also rejected the formula used by the Everton FY22 appeal board of about £6.5m per point penalty. Instead they decided the breach here exceeded the Upper Loss Threshold by 15.8%. They believed that was less than “in the order of 20%” and meant an extra 3 points would be too much, so 2 points seemed the right amount to add onto the starting position of 3. The commission accepted the double jeopardy argument and said that since the latest FY23 losses were 51.6% of the overall PSR loss, they would deduct 2 points from the 5 based on the fact that they could only deal in whole numbers. We were then given credit for early admission and that, combined with the evidenced loss of revenue of the USM Finch Farm deal, was enough to constitute another point reduction, bringing it down to 2.

The major issue which sort of gets missed (because hundreds of pages of legal speak is too much for your average fan to want to digest) is that all 4 hearing outcomes have resulted in different methodologies applied when coming up with the penalty.
On this basis it seems Forest have come out with a lighter deduction compared to both of Everton's deductions.

Surely this will mean that their appeal will be weaker, and in fact more likely to be increased rather than decreased.

Saying that, it depends who reviews it on the day. Nobody knows what will happen in the review.
 
Yes. In summary, the Forest commission used a more generous sanction policy which did not have the £6.5m per point increases for the scale of the breach. Our latest commission rejected the approach of the Forest commission and gave us a higher starting deduction as a result. Totally inconsistent. I wonder if this puts Forest at risk of having their sanction increased, if their appeal commission takes account of our latest hearing?
It's a weird one. Reading through it our commission clearly feel Forest should have had one more point off than they did but I'm not sure what force that would really have at their appeal, it's an opinion but has no more force than the opinion of their IC as both are the same level. IMO it will probably have more force at our appeal (pending the outcome of Forest's) than it will at Forest's itself.

I suspect this just ends as one more way we get shafted - Forest get a lenient IC, we get one that thinks they were wrong and should have been judged more harshly (and judge us accordingly) but nothing gets done to correct that.
 
On this basis it seems Forest have come out with a lighter deduction compared to both of Everton's deductions.

Surely this will mean that their appeal will be weaker, and in fact more likely to be increased rather than decreased.

Saying that, it depends who reviews it on the day. Nobody knows what will happen in the review.
Yes, pretty much. The Forest commission's adoption of a banding system has meant that even though their breach is nearly double Everton's first breach, they receive the same penalty (before mitigation) of 6 points. Is it fair? For all I know it's the fairest methodology of the 4 we've seen so far, but everyone involved should have a beef with the inconsistent ways these have been approached. After the original Everton case and appeal, we should have had a framework in place with enough precedent that the Forest commission and the Everton FY23 commission had a methodology to follow (which, oddly enough would have probably resulted in bigger penalties for both Forest and ourselves this week). Instead we've still got people making it all up, quite literally.
 

Slightly off topic, but he has written sensibly on occasion. Chief football writer made redundant. Crazy.


Pu55yman_Dan making him feel loads better, though.

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