97/98 season

[flibbyflob]

We lost 4-1 at Coventry in 1985,they stayed up and Norwich who had completed their fixtures (not like these days when everybody finishes the season at the same time)went down. Norwich fans were obviously angry that the league champions couldn't do them a favour,but having a nose on Everton results website,it was our 9th game in a little over 3 weeks,which included clinching the title,the ECWC and the FA cup finals,so it's no wonder there was nothing left in the tank(and we still had to play one more game after that at Luton which we also lost!). A more notorious one we were involved in,relegating Sunderland when we beat them in 1977. I was only a kid at the time so don't have the clearest memory of it,but wasn't there some shenanigans on the same night between Coventry v Bristol City,who both stayed up at Sunderlands expense? Maybe a bit similar to the notorious Austria v West Germany game in the world cup in 82?

The Coventry game was a delayed kick off so when they knew the other score they both gave up trying to win as both were safe. Sunderland fans still hate Coventry and Jimmy Hill for that night.

 

[Drico]

Wayne should have given us more than he did and we should never have taken him back when his premiership career was in decline. I got that eventually like Ronaldo he would go onto bigger and better teams but what a disappointment when he left.

Yes, he left three years too soon for my liking. I understood that he would have to move on - my feeling was he could have done so at 21 and not really lost out. I don't consider him an Everton legend (in the sense of being a truly great player who left an indelible mark for us) simply because he isn't. He was breathtaking in his early days with us, but left before he could "give us something" as you say. His return was a farce and, in my view, proof that Bill Kenwright's inert influence still carried weight.

Having said all of that, was there really a serious attempt to keep him in 2004? I really don't think there was. We were a shambles at board level. To have to see a generational talent to Man United was proof that we were no longer a great club, but a mere feeder or youth development programme for clubs who were our peers only 15 years before. The day he went was probably my lowest point as an Evertonian. That was the day we were truly relegated - from the top table to the also rans.

 

[Drico]

Fantastic thread and well timed as it allows me to ask my thoughts on how the Everton fans truly view other clubs and specifically Aston Villa. Spent the other night reading up their forum on Barkley and they made the statement that Everton fans wanted to see them go down. Others stated that’s a few as they know many that actually wished him luck ... etc...

Seems by and large they like Everton as much as any club could like an opposition team or fans base, but they not so sure how we feel about them.

When I read through their thread they actually seemed pretty positive yet realistic bunch, much like our thread comes across most times. Compared to Warford who always seem vaguely annoyed about everything, seemed a good bunch with good humor in the threads. Palace also seem a decent bunch of fans.
Newcastle on the other hand I don’t know why, but I just can’t seem to do anything except dislike them (ok I do know why and it’s Souness.. tainted)

so how do AV stack up in Everton estimates? They a club with a rich history and solid fan base..never really gave them much thought before as I don’t know any AV fans.

Aston Villa are a peer. They had at least two great eras themselves: pre-first World War and then under Ron Saunders who was an excellent manager. It was his team that won the European Cup, even if he wasn't there to see it himself. In terms of size and history, they are our closest analogue. However, they haven't been as consistent as we have (they've been up and down the divisions too regularly for a club of their size) and their success has been far too spread out, whereas we tended to win a title every decade or so until this century. But, like us, they are original blue bloods.

They have ambition at board level again and will be a threat in the coming years. For whatever nostalgic reason, I thought there was something rather old-school and satisfying about seeing Villa hammer the neighbours, Spurs obliterate United, and us sit top of the table on Sunday night. Old money is back.

 

[flibbyflob]

Still hate Johnny Vaughn.
Bellend

What is that about?

 

[Mitch Ward's Minder]

Say if we had to rip it all up and start the premier league all over again, here would be my 20 teams.

1 Everton
2 The RS (perhaps i should withdraw that invitation?)
3 Man United
4 Man City
5 Arsenal
6 Chelsea
7 Spurs
8 West Ham
9 Aston Villa
10 Leicester City
11 Nottingham Forest
12 Derby County
13 Coventry City
14 Blackburn Rovers
15 Middlesbrough
16 Sunderland
17 The Geordies (again like the rs should i withdraw the invitation?)
18 Leeds United
19 Sheffield Wednesday
20 Sheffield United

I think that's how the traditional top flight should look anyway.

I’d swap out 1 of Boro, Sunderland or Sheff U for Southampton

 

[Jamo Martinez]

Why do we hate Newcastle and Spurs more?

Hates a strong word, But I've never liked Chelsea. They've just a bigger Millwall to me.

I did feel sorry for them when they were absolutely robbed against Barca in the CL all them years ago.

I was absolutely buzzing when the equaliser went in. I sometimes put Iniesta's goal on when I need cheering up.

 

[Cork Evertonian]

I’d swap out 1 of Boro, Sunderland or Sheff U for Southampton

God Southampton were a major omission on my part.Seeing that Boro and Sunderland, have played more often in the top flight in recent years, the Blades can go back to the championship.

 

[Jamo Martinez]

Fantastic thread and well timed as it allows me to ask my thoughts on how the Everton fans truly view other clubs and specifically Aston Villa. Spent the other night reading up their forum on Barkley and they made the statement that Everton fans wanted to see them go down. Others stated that’s a few as they know many that actually wished him luck ... etc...

Seems by and large they like Everton as much as any club could like an opposition team or fans base, but they not so sure how we feel about them.

When I read through their thread they actually seemed pretty positive yet realistic bunch, much like our thread comes across most times. Compared to Warford who always seem vaguely annoyed about everything, seemed a good bunch with good humor in the threads. Palace also seem a decent bunch of fans.
Newcastle on the other hand I don’t know why, but I just can’t seem to do anything except dislike them (ok I do know why and it’s Souness.. tainted)

so how do AV stack up in Everton estimates? They a club with a rich history and solid fan base..never really gave them much thought before as I don’t know any AV fans.

I disliked them when I was younger because they beat us in the League cup final in 77. Lot of respect for them as a club now though. I like Villa Park aswell

 

[Jamo Martinez]

Say if we had to rip it all up and start the premier league all over again, here would be my 20 teams.

1 Everton
2 The RS (perhaps i should withdraw that invitation?)
3 Man United
4 Man City
5 Arsenal
6 Chelsea
7 Spurs
8 West Ham
9 Aston Villa
10 Leicester City
11 Nottingham Forest
12 Derby County
13 Coventry City
14 Blackburn Rovers
15 Middlesbrough
16 Sunderland
17 The Geordies (again like the rs should i withdraw the invitation?)
18 Leeds United
19 Sheffield Wednesday
20 Sheffield United

I think that's how the traditional top flight should look anyway.

Never liked Boro so replace them with Bolton or Stoke. And WBA in for Coventry.

 

[The Binman]

Yes, he left three years too soon for my liking. I understood that he would have to move on - my feeling was he could have done so at 21 and not really lost out. I don't consider him an Everton legend (in the sense of being a truly great player who left an indelible mark for us) simply because he isn't. He was breathtaking in his early days with us, but left before he could "give us something" as you say. His return was a farce and, in my view, proof that Bill Kenwright's inert influence still carried weight.

Having said all of that, was there really a serious attempt to keep him in 2004? I really don't think there was. We were a shambles at board level. To have to see a generational talent to Man United was proof that we were no longer a great club, but a mere feeder or youth development programme for clubs who were our peers only 15 years before. The day he went was probably my lowest point as an Evertonian. That was the day we were truly relegated - from the top table to the also rans.

Weren't there rumours we needed the money, could've gone bust without it?

 

[barneygumble]

Wayne should have given us more than he did and we should never have taken him back when his premiership career was in decline. I got that eventually like Ronaldo he would go onto bigger and better teams but what a disappointment when he left.

Mate, I agree entirely, but equally don’t.

I see the likes of Jeffers etc who kick up a fuss about leaving and achieve absolutely nothing.

At the time I was gutted Rooney left! He could have been a legend for Everton, but don’t beat an 18-year old Kid, who had a very money orientated Agent, working his way on a lad who isn’t the brightest.

He left to win the lot, and he did it. Won every domestic trophy he could have with United, personal accolades and broke a ridiculous amount of records whilst doing so.

He came back to show he gave a crap, and for Moshiri it was a statement. Rooney is. Global name in football, Gylfi and Davy Klaassen aren’t. He came back scored over 10 goals from a Sam Allardyce side and gave us some more good memories.

Everyone does stupid things, but ultimately I can’t sit there and moan. His transfer if you believe the hype stopped us going under and then Moyes has a great year and stopped the rot.

No hard feelings or wish of more from Rooney on my side.

 

[jaycee]

I know we played Chelsea toward the end of the 70s on the last day and beat them,they got relegated though I don't think a victory would have kept them up anyway,I suppose that and the fact we are one of the longest serving top flight teams had them wanting us relegated,personally the only other sides I havent seen go down are the rs and Arsenal

 

[Kev50]

Wayne should have given us more than he did and we should never have taken him back when his premiership career was in decline. I got that eventually like Ronaldo he would go onto bigger and better teams but what a disappointment when he left.

it's always been about what's best for No 1 with Wayne. He was prepared to throw Ferguson and United under the same bus when his contract renewal came around. Clearly Ferguson never forgave him, but he should have known from his treatment of us what he was dealing with.

 

[Naval Blue]

I can understand this sentiment. There's probably a sense that if all was right with the world the biggest clubs would comprise the top flight - and there is always a sense that "something has gone badly wrong" when a big club is in a lower division. Obviously, on the flip side, social mobility is a good thing and small clubs need to have something to aspire to. Meritocracy is good (even if a lot of it is really just about which club has money and an astute, ambitious board at the time).

Buy yeah, in terms of "size", I think the "ideal" or "optimal" Premier League of 20 clubs would include Everton, Arsenal, Aston Villa, Chelsea, Derby County, Leeds United, Leicester City, Manchester City, Manchester United, Newcastle United, Nottingham Forest, QPR, Sheffield United, Sheffield Wednesday, Southampton, Sunderland, Tottenham Hotspur, WBA, West Ham, and Wolves.

So this post peaked my interest in that, what is the basis of being a big club in order to get to the "ideal/Optimal" list of Premier League clubs. Personally i think it should be based on their record covering the period since football 'actually' began, so number of accumulated points + number of league titles. I've worked on the basis that each league title must be worth an extra 100 points to the overall points. So on this basis, the optimal league table would look like this:

Position Team Accumulated Points (end of last season) Top flight seasons League titles Total Points Final Position
1. Liverpool 6945 106 19 8845 1

2. Arsenal 6779 104 13 8079 2

3. Everton 6704 118 9 7604 4

4. Man Utd 6409 96 20 8409 3

5. Aston Villa 5899 107 7 6599 5

6. Man City 5311 91 6 5911 6

7. Chelsea 5140 86 6 5740 7

8. Tottenham 5109 85 2 5309 8

9. Newcastle 4895 88 4 5295 9

10. Sunderland 4551 87 6 5151 10

11. West Brom 4066 80 1 4166 11

12. Blackburn 3703 73 3 4003 12

13. Bolton 3697 74 0 3697 15

14. Sheff Wed 3564 66 4 3964 13

15. Wolves 3492 66 3 3792 14

16. Derby 3309 66 2 3509 16

17. Sheff Utd 3224 62 1 3324 18

18. West Ham 3172 62 0 3172 20

19 Middlesborough 3062 62 0 3062 21

20 Leeds Utd 3062 51 3 3362 17

21. Burnley 3050 57 2 3250 19

22. Nottingham Forest 2949 56 1 3049 22

Therefore Middlesborough and Nottingham Forest miss out and West Ham scrape through by the skin of their nose.
* I appreciate I put far too much thought and effort into this and mostly no-one will either care or agree, however, it killed an hour at work and makes sense to me.

 

[Wolf8312]

Mate, I agree entirely, but equally don’t.

I see the likes of Jeffers etc who kick up a fuss about leaving and achieve absolutely nothing.

At the time I was gutted Rooney left! He could have been a legend for Everton, but don’t beat an 18-year old Kid, who had a very money orientated Agent, working his way on a lad who isn’t the brightest.

He left to win the lot, and he did it. Won every domestic trophy he could have with United, personal accolades and broke a ridiculous amount of records whilst doing so.

He came back to show he gave a crap, and for Moshiri it was a statement. Rooney is. Global name in football, Gylfi and Davy Klaassen aren’t. He came back scored over 10 goals from a Sam Allardyce side and gave us some more good memories.

Everyone does stupid things, but ultimately I can’t sit there and moan. His transfer if you believe the hype stopped us going under and then Moyes has a great year and stopped the rot.

No hard feelings or wish of more from Rooney on my side.

To be clear I’m not one who holds any ill feelings towards him. For us it’s a sport but for them a career and legacy. I knew he would leave but he could have still stuck around a few years more than he did imo leaving Everton fans with more happy memories.

If anything I was more pissed off when he came back to be honest as I knew he was past it by that point!
It was like watching a beloved family member taking back an old husband who had once jilted her when he was the man but was now home albeit with crippling debts and erectile dysfunction!