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Cameron hails end of Labour

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probably one of the aspects of socialist government i least like in this country is the assumption that the state knows best what to do with your money & so wants to take as much as possible of it away from you. however, whilst i broadly agree with the point made regarding personal responsibility, if we are members of society we do have some reponsibilities to that society & we should be able to expect some collective support from that society in certain situations.
 
So the rich person should pay for their healthcare, as should everyone else. No collective free at the point of service. You use something, you pay for it. If you can't pay yourself then you're at the collective mercy of others to aid you.

I may have misunderstood this point, so if I have I apologise in advance.


I can't understand the viewpoint of the rich should pay for what they use and the poor should pay for what they use. It smacks a little of Classism to me.

Say a rich couple has a child. It's a perfectly healthy baby Hospital fees are minimal. They have got a perfectly healthy baby, that hasn't cost them they're entire life savings.

Then a poor couple have a child who was premature and as a result needed respiratory treatment, steroids to help growth etc. The fees are astronomical and the poor couple simply cannot afford the treatment for that child to live. It dies as a result and the poor couple have no child and Still have to pay for the fees of the hospital in delivering the baby etc.

I'm not a rocket scientist and I know I'm using opposite ends of the spectrum to establish my viewpoint. But that's the way I see what you're trying to say Bruce Wayne. The rich can afford it so let them pay for themselves whilst they get richer. The poor can't so let them die. It's mind boggling that in this day and age people are even questioning the thought of being taxed for Healthcare.
 
By your reckoning, Bruce, if X is born into a penniless family, is brought up by idiotic parents, attends a failing school, has poor health due to social and genetic influences, then society has absolutely no duty to aid him. So, despite the fact that his life chances were poor from the beginning, he can essentially rot in the gutter unless some kindly person takes pity on him and offers him private aid.

On another related matter, the market place is not a just and fair system. Those with intelligence who do well in it, are doing well through accident of birth. It is their genetic make up that fundamentally says what they have the potential to be. Since no person is responsible for his genetic make up, then it follows that no person is really responsible for how well he does in life. In other words, concepts like "desert" become meaningless and life is played out like Darwinian nightmare, where only those best adapted to their environment can prosper.

That's not the world I want to live in. I want government interference, but thoughtful interference, aimed at improving lives.
 

Playing Devil's advocate for a moment...

We live in a society where there is little incentive to strive, little incentive to contribute. Lazy wasters can sit in front of Jeremy Kyle all day, eating chips drinking 8 Ace, draining the money out of government that was meant for those unable rather than unwilling to help themselves. They get their housing paid for, they get grants for white goods, they don't have to worry about interest rates going up, or losing their job due to impending recession.

While everyone else is sweating on how they're going to make ends meet in spite of working as hard as they ever have, our current benefits system gives those who wish to abuse it the easiest ride through life possible.

Bruce is advocating a system which, really is a Meritocracy, if you can push for it, and get it, it's yours. If you can't, tough... it's a form of societal natural selection, and quite possibly could work.

We are currently as unhealthy a nation as we have ever been. If people were financially responsible for their healthcare, perhaps they may take better care of themselves. If they didn't have the nous to do that, and were unwilling to contribute, maybe society would be better off without. A painful couple of generations and the problem would be largely solved, a far more motivated and healthy society would need far less intervention entirely, it becomes a self perpetuating situation.



Of course, nothing's quite that simple, even if we did have the stomache to stand by and watch swathes of society rot. After all, it's not just the unwilling that suffer, it's the unable. Unable for whatever reason. They are why we have a welfare state. Yes, it may be being abused to buggery, but there but for the grace of god go us all, and it's a neccessary safety net, because individual charity is fickle, Bruce.

The answer isn't necessarily less Government intervention, it may be more. Educate the youth until they have a trade, failing that, introduce a catch all National Service. It needn't be military, there's plenty of things need doing around the country, look around, the place is a mess. Give the feckless youth who hasn't made other arrangements something to do for a couple of years, something where they get the opportunity to pay their way and earn a bit of self respect, until they want to work (at least, as much as we all do).
If people don't cooperate, make them, lock them up, and make them work in the community on day release for free. Cooperation would follow soon after. It all may seem a little heavy handed, but if we want to keep the safety net and maintain a healthy, robust society, maybe it's the way to go.
 
Playing Devil's advocate for a moment...

We live in a society where there is little incentive to strive, little incentive to contribute. Lazy wasters can sit in front of Jeremy Kyle all day, eating chips drinking 8 Ace, draining the money out of government that was meant for those unable rather than unwilling to help themselves. They get their housing paid for, they get grants for white goods, they don't have to worry about interest rates going up, or losing their job due to impending recession.

While everyone else is sweating on how they're going to make ends meet in spite of working as hard as they ever have, our current benefits system gives those who wish to abuse it the easiest ride through life possible.

Bruce is advocating a system which, really is a Meritocracy, if you can push for it, and get it, it's yours. If you can't, tough... it's a form of societal natural selection, and quite possibly could work.

We are currently as unhealthy a nation as we have ever been. If people were financially responsible for their healthcare, perhaps they may take better care of themselves. If they didn't have the nous to do that, and were unwilling to contribute, maybe society would be better off without. A painful couple of generations and the problem would be largely solved, a far more motivated and healthy society would need far less intervention entirely, it becomes a self perpetuating situation.



Of course, nothing's quite that simple, even if we did have the stomache to stand by and watch swathes of society rot. After all, it's not just the unwilling that suffer, it's the unable. Unable for whatever reason. They are why we have a welfare state. Yes, it may be being abused to buggery, but there but for the grace of god go us all, and it's a neccessary safety net, because individual charity is fickle, Bruce.

The answer isn't necessarily less Government intervention, it may be more. Educate the youth until they have a trade, failing that, introduce a catch all National Service. It needn't be military, there's plenty of things need doing around the country, look around, the place is a mess. Give the feckless youth who hasn't made other arrangements something to do for a couple of years, something where they get the opportunity to pay their way and earn a bit of self respect, until they want to work (at least, as much as we all do).
If people don't cooperate, make them, lock them up, and make them work in the community on day release for free. Cooperation would follow soon after. It all may seem a little heavy handed, but if we want to keep the safety net
and maintain a healthy, robust society, maybe it's the way to go.


I completely agree with the embolden passage, very well put Gordon. (y)
 
I didn't want to get dragged into this but such is my lack of willpower I can't help myself :lol:

I think you have to much faith in the common man to be honest Bruce.

Yes and no. On the one hand I think that its human nature to essentially put yourself (and your family) first. That's not to say we won't look out for others, but we only do that once we're set ourselves. Simple Maslow at work. It's for this reason that any concentration of power is bad news, be it public or private. You only have to look down the past century (and probably further) of public office. Every single government has had self serving tosspots that are as bent as a nine bob note. That's not to say there aren't crooked people in the private sector, but at least if someone at Tesco is crooked I can take my money to Asda, or Morrisons, or M&S or Somerfield etc. You get a crooked government and you're stuffed for four years.

On the other hand I do believe that people are more good than bad. Despite taxation in Britain getting close to 50% of GDP the British people still donate billions to charity, and even more in time and effort. I'm sure many of us have experience with youth football, and youth sport in general wouldn't exist without people giving their time. There's a general theory that if people expect someone else to do something for them they won't bother themselves. With taxation being so high and government intervention so smothering people do expect them to wipe their backsides for them. It's a dangerous state of affairs.

It is their genetic make up that fundamentally says what they have the potential to be.

That's precisely the kind of attidude I really detest in modern Britain. This idea that nothing is your responsibility, that your failings are all down to someone or something else. The fatty blaming McDonalds, the addict blaming William Hill, and now the dummy blaming their genetics. I've no doubt that some people have genetic gifts that make things easier for them, no one said that life was fair, but you sure as heck don't give up. If things are tough, you try harder. I don't expect everyone to be a rocket scientist, but I do expect everyone to try and be the best they can be. We live in a country where every child gets access to over 5,000 hours of schooling for free (I know it's not free in the slightest but at point of service and all that), and yet still we have kids leaving school barely able to read and write. I've worked in schools before and its painful to see kids dossing about knowing full well that I'll be picking up their tab for the rest of my life. You say our kids have hardships due to genetics, I bet if you gave their opportunities to some African or Indian kid they'd bite your hand off to take it. You mention that the market isn't fair, you're darn right it isn't. I don't think our kids have any idea just how tough it is when you've got several million Indian and Chinese kids, not to mention Europeans, that are bloody smart and bloody hard working ready to take your job, often for less money than you. Are you ready to compete or are you going to stand there whining that life's tough?

Of course, nothing's quite that simple, even if we did have the stomache to stand by and watch swathes of society rot. After all, it's not just the unwilling that suffer, it's the unable. Unable for whatever reason. They are why we have a welfare state. Yes, it may be being abused to buggery, but there but for the grace of god go us all, and it's a neccessary safety net, because individual charity is fickle, Bruce.

I agree that we're such as a society that we do show compassion to those less fortunate. What's interesting is that whenever I bestow the virtues of voluntary charity people always say how important it is and that we must have government intervention to provide it. So everyone I speak to is a charitable sort, but they still need government to force donations from everyone. Now either people talk through their bumhole and don't walk the walk or they have an unrealistically pessimistic view of the rest of society. It's interesting to remember that the NHS was modelled on a voluntary employer health insurance scheme to provide miners with healthcare. Quite how it became the bloated monstrosity it is today I'll never know.

The answer isn't necessarily less Government intervention, it may be more.

I think this lies at the crux of why I dislike governments. It stinks of arrogance that government knows the one true way to enlightenment and no one else can deliver it. The whole situation is incredibly damaging.

The wonderful power of the market is that we as consumers don't generally care how companies produce things, all we care about is the product at the end of things. Ok, in the age of CSR people are beginning to take an interesting in the method as well as the outcome but you get my jist. So Toyota can go about making cars one way, Ford another, GM yet another, Nissan another again, each specialising in their own way of working, each competing with one another for our custom, and we get to choose the car that best suits our needs. Contrast that with government and they assume they know best, and because they have a forced monopoly, their way is essentially the only way. You don't get choice, you don't get experimentation, you don't get innovation. Each and every one of us are individuals with unique characteristics and unique personalities, yet government try and force a one size fits all system upon us.

We're all here because we love football, so I'll use a footballing analogy. We here at Everton have enjoyed success largely because we've had stability with Moyes in charge. Ferguson has been the same at United and Wenger at Arsenal. When you have stability to go about things your way it can bring great success, but lets not forget that each of those three has to succeed in the market for players, and more importantly fans.

Now contrast that with a club like Newcastle, because I think they're very much like a government. You get a new manager/pm come in with grand promises. They splash the cash for a few seasons going about things their way. The fans/voters get restless because they havn't achieved short-term success and sack the manager. A new man comes in with a different set of ideas, but he's not building from the ground up, he has to build on what went before him, even though his ideas on how success can be achieved are completely different. So you have a period where changes are made, players sold, new players brought in, and this turmoil hampers results still further so that after a few more seasons the fans are pissed again and sack the new manager. And around we go, time after time, Labour changing Tories, Tories changing Labour and Newcastle havn't won a trophy in god knows how long.
 
That does assume that unless governments provide charity that no one else will though doesn't it?

I would call it administration of funds rather than charity. Obviously if anyone feels their money is not being administered well by the government they'll vote against it. I suppose the voting choice generally boils down to just two questions. 'Do I like the way the government is spending my money?' and 'Will this other lot spend it more wisely?'

To be honest (like yourself and many others) my answer would be 'no' to both questions.
 
possibly the biggest issue with government is that it is elected by the ill-informed and easily led, but I'm not going to go into the whole minefield of voter competency assessments:D
 

I didn't want to get dragged into this but such is my lack of willpower I can't help myself :lol:



That's precisely the kind of attidude I really detest in modern Britain. This idea that nothing is your responsibility, that your failings are all down to someone or something else.

There is a difference, Bruce, in recognising that life opportunities are poor for many people, and then claiming that the feckless and irresponsible have, therefore, been denied life opportunities. Go around any sink estate in Britain and you’ll meet hard working people living on the breadline. If you’re saying that these people are failures merely by virtue of the fact that they require the government and, therefore, the taxpayer, to give them a few hand-outs, then I’m disagreeing with you vehemently. Such people need government intervention in their lives, and they deserve it.

The fatty blaming McDonalds, the addict blaming William Hill, and now the dummy blaming their genetics. I've no doubt that some people have genetic gifts that make things easier for them, no one said that life was fair, but you sure as heck don't give up. If things are tough, you try harder. I don't expect everyone to be a rocket scientist, but I do expect everyone to try and be the best they can be.
You’re espousing a perfectionist doctrine which I’m quite comfortable with. To be a perfectionist, however, government intervention is necessary. Government policy aimed at inculcating the correct desires and wants in people is one way to achieve a good society. Or perhaps you disagree with education or that some activities are superior to others? Remember, there is an array of social influence on the individual, some good and some bad. Government influence is just one way that, if used properly, can be a force for good. Presumably you believe in promoting equal treatment? If so, then you need government to right wrongs, to legislate against those that would discriminate.

I don’t see why you automatically assume that there is something sinister about all this. You need to back up your claims with reasons why the libertarian society is superior to the non-libertarian society. At the moment, you’re just expressing a personal preference without committing yourself to reasons why we’d all be better off under your system. In fact, I believe your system promotes freedom for some and tyranny for others. Those not equipped to gain a decent share of the limited resources in this world can never achieve the freedom that you take for granted.


We live in a country where every child gets access to over 5,000 hours of schooling for free (I know it's not free in the slightest but at point of service and all that), and yet still we have kids leaving school barely able to read and write. I've worked in schools before and its painful to see kids dossing about knowing full well that I'll be picking up their tab for the rest of my life. You say our kids have hardships due to genetics, I bet if you gave their opportunities to some African or Indian kid they'd bite your hand off to take it.
I think you’re confusing genetic and social differences. Sure, I bet the African kid you refer to would bite your hand off to be given the opportunity you refer to. However, if this kid has some genetic disposition to failing in the type of society we operate in, then he’s determined to fail regardless of what opportunity comes his way.
 
There is a difference, Bruce, in recognising that life opportunities are poor for many people, and then claiming that the feckless and irresponsible have, therefore, been denied life opportunities. Go around any sink estate in Britain and you’ll meet hard working people living on the breadline. If you’re saying that these people are failures merely by virtue of the fact that they require the government and, therefore, the taxpayer, to give them a few hand-outs, then I’m disagreeing with you vehemently. Such people need government intervention in their lives, and they deserve it.

I don't doubt that some people are unlucky in life but I simply cannot believe that this number is proportionate to the current welfare state. Even excluding healthcare and education the social security budget last year was £169 billion!! That works out at practically £3,000 for every man, woman and child in the country. That's insane, absolutely insane. Recent figures suggest that there are around 30 million people in Britain of working age, and government figures suggest around 1 million are unemployed. When you add the 2.4 million on incapacity benefit (yes, you read that right!), that works out at approximately £50,000 p/a for each person of working age out of work. Even allowing some flexibility in the figures as obviously not all welfare goes to the unemployed this is still an outrageous number when you look at the good it's doing.

I'm afraid yes I am going to call a lot of these people failures. Hardship is a fact of life, we're all bloody lucky to even be here at all, to then throw away your life because obstacles have been tossed your way is a cop out. Lance Armstrong could have given up because life put cancer in his way but he showed determination and bloody mindedness to succeed regardless. I myself am not the most naturally gifted person academically, my parents aren't super rich, they're working class, but I work bloody hard to make the most of what I do have. My family raised me to believe that you don't turn to charity until you've looked under every single rock for a solution, until you've used every last drop of energy to drag yourself up. That's basic self respect. I see too many people taking the easy way out.

You’re espousing a perfectionist doctrine which I’m quite comfortable with. To be a perfectionist, however, government intervention is necessary. Government policy aimed at inculcating the correct desires and wants in people is one way to achieve a good society. Or perhaps you disagree with education or that some activities are superior to others?

I really don't believe it is neccessary and in fact I believe it to largely do more harm than good for the very reason I gave in my Newcastle analogy. It goes against all science to suggest that there is one way to do something and one way only. Evolution has proved so successful because it allows all species to try and survive any which way it can and lets the best succeed, and the worst fail. To suggest there is but one way of doing things deprives society of all that innovation. You ask for science to back up my claims, I'm happy to as there is a wealth of it. I mentioned evolution as one strand, chaos theory is but another, game theory yet another, complexity science one more, much of artificial intelligence is grounded in the same, emergence likewise and, much as I suspect you won't like this, the free market another. Even newer theories such as the wisdom of crowds follow the same principle. The concept is simple. Complex systems evolve best not when you have a god like designer playing architect as governments insist, but when simple rules are provided and each component within that system is then left to act as they please. In our societal system we have laws in place, I'm happy enough for a government to provide law and order, but everything else they should leave right alone. Biology, right down to the selfish gene, suggests that humans and other species generally act in a selfish manner. All of the above theories strongly suggest that not only is that a positive thing but is positively crucial for the long-term success of a system.

I'm not suggesting that such a society will be a bed of roses all the time, but what it does allow, and this is something we appear increasingly keen to eradicate, is the opportunity to learn from our mistakes. Where learning and knowledge development are concerned, learning from our mistakes is one of the finest means of advancement, but the pain of failure has to be sufficient. We're in danger of eliminating failure in society. What incentive is there for the financial market to improve when the government merrily bail out failing banks? Sure in the short-term letting NR go to the wall would have caused some pain but in the long term it would have meant a much stronger system because appropriate value would have been assigned to the risk of certain actions. But the current political system doesn't allow for long-term thinking. Remember, all people are essentially selfish beings, so politicians want to get elected as often as possible. That's their livelyhood after all. Elections happen on a 4 year cycle, so 4 year timeframes are the order of the day. Screw the long term, that's someone elses problem.

I think you’re confusing genetic and social differences. Sure, I bet the African kid you refer to would bite your hand off to be given the opportunity you refer to. However, if this kid has some genetic disposition to failing in the type of society we operate in, then he’s determined to fail regardless of what opportunity comes his way.

You asked me for evidence earlier to support my belief, I'll throw this one back at you. You've mentioned genetics as a reason for many to fail in society several times now. I'd love to know what genetic disposition ensures that certain individuals can do absolutely nothing productive in society and how many people in Britain have this affliction. Because as I said in my previous post, I don't expect each and every person to be a brilliant mathmatician or an exceptional athlete, but I do expect everyone to be the best they can be. I find it hard to believe that there are that many people in society that with sufficient will and motivation could not learn enough to be productive members of society, but will happily change my mind if sufficient evidence is presented.
 
You asked me for evidence earlier to support my belief, I'll throw this one back at you. You've mentioned genetics as a reason for many to fail in society several times now. I'd love to know what genetic disposition ensures that certain individuals can do absolutely nothing productive in society and how many people in Britain have this affliction. Because as I said in my previous post, I don't expect each and every person to be a brilliant mathmatician or an exceptional athlete, but I do expect everyone to be the best they can be. I find it hard to believe that there are that many people in society that with sufficient will and motivation could not learn enough to be productive members of society, but will happily change my mind if sufficient evidence is presented.

But the crux of the problem now seems to be edging towards metaphysics. You seem to believe that the "will" is this prime mover unmoved. That is, nothing beforehand affects the way the individual operates. Every choice he makes, as such, is merely a matter of "willing" to do the right thing. My position is far more deterministic. I do believe in "will", but not in the sense that you claim it to be. Every choice we make is the outcome of previous incidents. We're in the causal order, after all. If what has gone on before is not conducive to human flourishing then it follows that the decision making process is corrupted by that history. You can't claim that every individual, with his differing past history should, by some miracle of biology, always be in a position to make the best move possible since, more than likely, the move he makes will have been determined already. The best and most hopeful I can be on this is to claim that free will is compatible with a deterministic universe. In this sense, training of the will through various programmes might tip the balance one way or the other, even if it is merely making the individual aware that his desires are less than productive.

I admit, though, that there does exist particularly vicious people with no regard to others who will milk the system for all it is worth. I've no problem with laying blame on these types since, unless they are mentally retarded, they do have the ability to reflect, to think about what is good and proper. Even if they are pretty much destined to live bad lives, it doesn't mean that they should be accepting of that fact. When they do accept it, and then rejoice in their "badness", we can easily condemn them. Blame is an absolutely necessary part of human existence and allows us to distinguish between good and bad. But there is a bigger picture that we ought not to ignore, and some of it was outlined above.
 
I don't mind being taxed, as long it's for the purpose of evening up the various social injustices in the country, supporting a vibrant NHS, improving law and order and generally improving the quality of life for everyone, particularly the disadvantaged. I do, however, object to the myriad of hidden taxes and to the fact that the most heavily burdened (at least by proportion of income) tend to be amongst the poorest. I'm ashamed that Labour, which is my party, has allowed the gulf between rich and poor to widen.
I agree in fact after reading it I think you've been earwigging my discussions in the pub
 

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