2020/21 Carlo Ancelotti

[Saint Domingo]

I get what you're saying but I think our results against the teams you're saying West Ham would never beat, and they won't you're right, are not a guarantee to continue. Defend deep and take your chances isn't a novel idea for beating those sides. At some point the fortune flips like it did against Chelsea.

Apart from Godfrey in for Mina though, and a half fit Allan, we have the same side as last season due to injuries at the moment. That was a side that got pasted 4-0 at Stanford Bridge and was getting ran through at home by Bournemouth. Those issues haven’t gone away. It’s the same players so is Carlo just supposed to do the same. They can’t go toe to toe with even some of the weakest teams. I’d like it to be otherwise but they can’t. I don’t know where the finger of blame gets pointed for that but whatever formation you put Davies Siggurdson Bernard Gomes Coleman Keane in they are going to be run around by faster stronger players that every team in this league has over us (even the bottom ones). We either accept this and adapt accordingly in the short term (which I think Carlo has done) or we just keep peddling this moan of ‘why can’t we beat Fulham at home’.

It’s been laid out plenty of times yet people keep ignoring it. West Ham have Soucek and Rice, Fulham have Loftus Cheek, Anguissa, Newcastle have Longstaff Shelvey, Brighton have Bissouma Alzate Lallana.

These teams aren’t poor, what sets them apart is they often have poor strikers, and poor defensive organisation but they are hardly ever lacking for pace or power in midfield. All of those midfielders listed can easily easily bully a midfield of Gomes Davies Siggurdson any single day of the week. That means if w snake defensive errors against them, or our strikers misfire, we are not going to be winning the game because we cannot compete in midfield, and that’s the bottom teams not even the teams at the top whose midfielders are literally leagues above ours.

This is a far cry from the days of having Arteta Cahill Fellaini Pienaar McCarthy Barkley etc. Those were some of the top midfielders in the league and definitely miles better than anything the lower end teams had. Maybe if Allan Docuoure Gbamin were all fully fit they could hold their own but even then are they as good as Kante, Fabinho, Kovacic, Fernandes, Pogba, Rodri, De Bruyne, Gundogan? No. What they might be able to do is scrap it out with a lower end team to give our better quality players (the front three) the platform to win games.

At the moment though we keep playing the same players (because we have no one else) in midfield and people keep moaning about the same things. Until those midfielders aren’t getting in the lineup there’s nothing we can do to overhaul the playing style. We have to sit deep and play on the counter because these players cannot press, they cannot tackle, they’re not very good at passing, they can’t cover the gaps between them and they can’t run.

We can keep moaning at Carlo all we want but what is he supposed to do? Defy the laws of physics and just have Davies and Gomes utterly bossing teams all over a park that they struggle to run across?

 

[Paulie]

I reckon in normal circumstances we'd have far better home results, as would others. Therefore, we'd lose or draw more away games and it'd balance out and we'd be in about the same position. Few would be questioning Carlo because he is still working with a squad made of mediocrity and an FA Cup quarters and still in the frame for 4th place in March would be seen is a step in the right direction.

 

[TheBigIguana]

Apart from Godfrey in for Mina though, and a half fit Allan, we have the same side as last season due to injuries at the moment. That was a side that got pasted 4-0 at Stanford Bridge and was getting ran through at home by Bournemouth. Those issues haven’t gone away. It’s the same players so is Carlo just supposed to do the same. They can’t go toe to toe with even some of the weakest teams. I’d like it to be otherwise but they can’t. I don’t know where the finger of blame gets pointed for that but whatever formation you put Davies Siggurdson Bernard Gomes Coleman Keane in they are going to be run around by faster stronger players that every team in this league has over us (even the bottom ones). We either accept this and adapt accordingly in the short term (which I think Carlo has done) or we just keep peddling this moan of ‘why can’t we beat Fulham at home’.

It’s been laid out plenty of times yet people keep ignoring it. West Ham have Soucek and Rice, Fulham have Loftus Cheek, Anguissa, Newcastle have Longstaff Shelvey, Brighton have Bissouma Alzate Lallana.

These teams aren’t poor, what sets them apart is they often have poor strikers, and poor defensive organisation but they are hardly ever lacking for pace or power in midfield. All of those midfielders listed can easily easily bully a midfield of Gomes Davies Siggurdson any single day of the week. That means if w snake defensive errors against them, or our strikers misfire, we are not going to be winning the game because we cannot compete in midfield, and that’s the bottom teams not even the teams at the top whose midfielders are literally leagues above ours.

This is a far cry from the days of having Arteta Cahill Fellaini Pienaar McCarthy Barkley etc. Those were some of the top midfielders in the league and definitely miles better than anything the lower end teams had. Maybe if Allan Docuoure Gbamin were all fully fit they could hold their own but even then are they as good as Kante, Fabinho, Kovacic, Fernandes, Pogba, Rodri, De Bruyne, Gundogan? No. What they might be able to do is scrap it out with a lower end team to give our better quality players (the front three) the platform to win games.

At the moment though we keep playing the same players (because we have no one else) in midfield and people keep moaning about the same things. Until those midfielders aren’t getting in the lineup there’s nothing we can do to overhaul the playing style. We have to sit deep and play on the counter because these players cannot press, they cannot tackle, they’re not very good at passing, they can’t cover the gaps between them and they can’t run.

We can keep moaning at Carlo all we want but what is he supposed to do? Defy the laws of physics and just have Davies and Gomes utterly bossing teams all over a park that they struggle to run across?

If it is all about the players being better than there is a strong chance that we never make CL with Carlo. We're not going to sign better players for the most part (Allan being an example as he's about the best we can do and not making City's bench) so we have no choice but to develop them. If Carlo isn't going to do that we probably can't compete. And if he also can't get more out of the players that is another issue.

He's got to step up too.

 

[Tubey]

It will be a pleasant surprise in some ways, but also make me think the club is fairly incompetent. If they really were sat on a couple of hundred million and decided to keep their powder dry in January when we had the best chance of top 4 in the last 15 years, I'll be more than a little annoyed.

I think it was FFP. We reach a 'boundary' this summer in terms of the rules apparently.

 

[Saint Domingo]

If it is all about the players being better than there is a strong chance that we never make CL with Carlo. We're not going to sign better players for the most part (Allan being an example as he's about the best we can do and not making City's bench) so we have no choice but to develop them. If Carlo isn't going to do that we probably can't compete. And if he also can't get more out of the players that is another issue.

He's got to step up too.

We can make better use of why we have by bridging the quality gap in the squad. Carlo has taken DCL Richy Godfrey Keane Holgate up a level since joining. He’s improved the midfielders too but their base level is just too low. If we got in two competent midfielders who can run, tackle, and pass, to a premier league standard then combined with Docuoure Allan and hopefully Gbamin we will have decent midfield options. That will then allow our better players to be a lot better, less pressure on the defence, more chances for the forwards equals more games won and CL football.

We won’t get CL football if next season we are playing a large chunk of games with Davies Gomes Siggurdson Coleman. It just won’t happen no matter what Carlo does.

 

[TheBigIguana]

We can make better use of why we have by bridging the quality gap in the squad. Carlo has taken DCL Richy Godfrey Keane Holgate up a level since joining. He’s improved the midfielders too but their base level is just too low. If we got in two competent midfielders who can run, tackle, and pass, to a premier league standard then combined with Docuoure Allan and hopefully Gbamin we will have decent midfield options. That will then allow our better players to be a lot better, less pressure on the defence, more chances for the forwards equals more games won and CL football.

We won’t get CL football if next season we are playing a large chunk of games with Davies Gomes Siggurdson Coleman. It just won’t happen no matter what Carlo does.

Which is why progress and building for the future should take precedence over results based pragmatism. They haven't and it leaves us nowhere.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Which is why progress and building for the future should take precedence over results based pragmatism. They haven't and it leaves us nowhere.

Getting battered lots isn’t progress. I’m not sure what people think would happen if we didn’t sit deep. We wouldn’t suddenly start dominating the ball and playing a lovey attacking style. No we just wouldn’t see the ball and would be getting ran through every game and losing heavily and finishing bottom half maybe in a relegation battle again. How does that attract even decent players in comparison to maybe finishing in the European places?

 

[Lanolin]

We can make better use of why we have by bridging the quality gap in the squad. Carlo has taken DCL Richy Godfrey Keane Holgate up a level since joining. He’s improved the midfielders too but their base level is just too low. If we got in two competent midfielders who can run, tackle, and pass, to a premier league standard then combined with Docuoure Allan and hopefully Gbamin we will have decent midfield options. That will then allow our better players to be a lot better, less pressure on the defence, more chances for the forwards equals more games won and CL football.

We won’t get CL football if next season we are playing a large chunk of games with Davies Gomes Siggurdson Coleman. It just won’t happen no matter what Carlo does.

Getting battered lots isn’t progress. I’m not sure what people think would happen if we didn’t sit deep. We wouldn’t suddenly start dominating the ball and playing a lovey attacking style. No we just wouldn’t see the ball and would be getting ran through every game and losing heavily and finishing bottom half maybe in a relegation battle again. How does that attract even decent players in comparison to maybe finishing in the European places?

No offence because you're an intelligent poster and you talk a lot of sense even when I don't agree, but this is just really simplistic nonsense. Our team isn't great, but it really, really isn't that bad. It is possible to be reasonably sound defensively but also cause teams a few problems. You're making out like all these teams we're playing have got 6ft4 100m runners playing in central midfield but they haven't. And even if that was that problem, the blame would lie with Brands for not signing players who could help us in that regard, and as you made clear the other day, you don't believe that to be the case. Allan and Gomes were Brands signings, at a cost of around £50m and being paid somewhere in the region of £70-100k a week, each. If they really can't influence a game because 5ft11 Josh Brownhill and 5ft9 Ashley Westwood are too athletic for them then i'm sorry but he's clearly failing quite badly at his job.

 

[TheBigIguana]

Getting battered lots isn’t progress. I’m not sure what people think would happen if we didn’t sit deep. We wouldn’t suddenly start dominating the ball and playing a lovey attacking style. No we just wouldn’t see the ball and would be getting ran through every game and losing heavily and finishing bottom half maybe in a relegation battle again. How does that attract even decent players in comparison to maybe finishing in the European places?

That's an exaggeration. We played decent stuff to start the year and stuffed some teams. We had a tough game against Saints and lost to a superior United team and scrapped it. We have more than enough even when only semi healthy to dominate Fulham or WBA.

 

[everton1953]

Reading through all these different opinions, on reflection, I reckon just maybe it is the wrong time for us to be bleating (as I certainly have) about our horrible standard of football. Hopefully we will never experience another freak season like this, where games are crammed in to a crazy schedule, where clubs with squads limited in numbers and ability like us, fare badly. See this crap season off and start again next August, we hope.

 

[jamieni]

Reading through all these different opinions, on reflection, I reckon just maybe it is the wrong time for us to be bleating (as I certainly have) about our horrible standard of football. Hopefully we will never experience another freak season like this, where games are crammed in to a crazy schedule, where clubs with squads limited in numbers and ability like us, fare badly. See this crap season off and start again next August, we hope.

I agree. Not much respite for teams and there have been occasions when some of the team have been asked to play 3 games in about 5 or 6 days. We still need to strengthen the team/squad in the summer and then hopefully next season we’ll be in a really good position.

 

[deipnosophist]

I agree. Not much respite for teams and there have been occasions when some of the team have been asked to play 3 games in about 5 or 6 days. We still need to strengthen the team/squad in the summer and then hopefully next season we’ll be in a really good position.

I think we will strengthen the squad. However, good players brought in will, in due course (7-8 weeks) become ‘Evertonised’ ( ie become unmotivated and unambitious) and we will finish somewhere between 12th and 7th. Same the year after that...and after that again.

...but Blue Chrimbo will be great!!

NSNO

 

[faddy the blue]

No offence because you're an intelligent poster and you talk a lot of sense even when I don't agree, but this is just really simplistic nonsense. Our team isn't great, but it really, really isn't that bad. It is possible to be reasonably sound defensively but also cause teams a few problems. You're making out like all these teams we're playing have got 6ft4 100m runners playing in central midfield but they haven't. And even if that was that problem, the blame would lie with Brands for not signing players who could help us in that regard, and as you made clear the other day, you don't believe that to be the case. Allan and Gomes were Brands signings, at a cost of around £50m and being paid somewhere in the region of £70-100k a week, each. If they really can't influence a game because 5ft11 Josh Brownhill and 5ft9 Ashley Westwood are too athletic for them then i'm sorry but he's clearly failing quite badly at his job.

100% THIS.

The only thing I'd add is the fact that Allan was Carlo's signing.

Since the days of Schneiderlin and Gueye, we've been crying for a midfielder who can dictate the play from CM, carry the ball forward a little bit, simple through balls to wide players or balls in the channel.

At Everton, for the last 5 or 6 years our CM philosophy is simply to protect your defence and pass sideways. To think that our best CM passer in the last 6-7 years was Gareth Barry tells you something, and he cost nothing. Hence, if you'd look at the number of goals our midfield scores, we'd be among the worst.

We were frustrated by Barkley. Him alone was 100% better than Davies, Sigurdsson and Gomes.

If there is any club that cannot walk the talk, its Everton. Our business, mentality and conduct shows that.

Is there any training ground improvement witnessed in our mentality or positive play?

 

[John from Bootle]

One decent full back, and one decent winger. if you wanna call Richy a winger.

He's overachieving.

 

[Saint Domingo]

No offence because you're an intelligent poster and you talk a lot of sense even when I don't agree, but this is just really simplistic nonsense. Our team isn't great, but it really, really isn't that bad. It is possible to be reasonably sound defensively but also cause teams a few problems. You're making out like all these teams we're playing have got 6ft4 100m runners playing in central midfield but they haven't. And even if that was that problem, the blame would lie with Brands for not signing players who could help us in that regard, and as you made clear the other day, you don't believe that to be the case. Allan and Gomes were Brands signings, at a cost of around £50m and being paid somewhere in the region of £70-100k a week, each. If they really can't influence a game because 5ft11 Josh Brownhill and 5ft9 Ashley Westwood are too athletic for them then i'm sorry but he's clearly failing quite badly at his job.

Gomes is an individual case. When he first arrived he certainly was at the required level in my opinion although some believe he never hit it consistently, that’s fair enough. What is beyond doubt however is that since his injury his form has completely fallen off a cliff to the point he can barely run, pass, or make a tackle now. Is that Brands’ fault that he’s effectively now completely useless as a midfielder? Allan takes a few games to get up to speed, he’s been out injured also, but hopefully his return will help us wrestle a bit of control back in midfield.

I don’t back down from my point though. Davies Gomes and a half fit Allan is one of the worst midfields in the league. The size of their opponents doesn’t matter, it’s their speed, they look like they’re running in treacle up against most opposition midfield players. They’re unbelievably slow. A fully fit Allan, Docuoure and a pre-injury Gomes would probably be a very decent midfield indeed and having 2/3 of that working effectively was the basis on which we won games early in the season and again before Christmas before Allan did his hamstring.

Continuing to just exhort Carlo to get more out of Davies Siggurdson and Gomes is becoming pointless. No one has been able to get a tune out of any of them. They can’t play the type of dominating midfield play everyone is so desperate to see so the choice is to lose or win a different way. Some fans seem to want the mythical third way though where these players suddenly find an extra half yard of pace that allows them to get on top of their opponents in the midfield battles every week. It’s not going to happen.

The same thing will happen against City. We’ll put out half paced championship standard midfielders and Allan (because we have no one else) against De Bruyne Rodri Gundogan and then when it all goes wrong we’ll just blame Carlo for not making them ‘have a go’ enough.