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2020/21 Carlo Ancelotti

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twoblue said:
You can’t blame Coleman for this.
I agree that ancelotti need another season but I think the football has been terrible and results overall inexcusable
Click to expand...

I'm not blaming Coleman but we lack any kind of leader. Coleman got the job because he says the right thing and his service length but some people just aren't suited to captaining a team that needs dragged forward.
 
twoblue said:
You can’t blame Coleman for this.
I agree that ancelotti need another season but I think the football has been terrible and results overall inexcusable
Click to expand...

I'm not blaming Coleman but we lack any kind of leader. Coleman got the job because he says the right thing and his service length but some people just aren't suited to captaining a team that needs dragged forward.
 
Kever10 said:
I agree, but the problem within that is we went from Moyes to Martinez with no directors in place. Then we got a new owner and appointed our 1st DOF and a new manager who made it very clear that the previous manager was totally wrong about everything and went out of his way to do everything the opposite way to prove it. This meant alienating and replacing almost half of an entire squad in 2 years, and it failed spectacularly and expensively. So we appointed a 2nd manager to try and fix his mess, and let's be fair to Allardyce, we all knew it was a temporary, damage limitation tactic. Allardyce said what we all knew, the squad was a mess, but he wasnt well liked, so everyone dismissed it.

So we go and get a new Director of football and a new manager, both of whom felt that the previous approach was wrong. This negates the consistency of the DOF approach, as it was a complete reset. The new manager had similar ideas/ideals to Martinez, and was once again, a complete 180 from the previous approach. Unfortunately, like Martinez and Koeman before him, he was so stubborn and inflexible, that he refused to alter his approach for anyone, and if plan A didn't work, plan B was trying plan A again. On top of this, he was about as charismatic a leader as Gary Megson, and he had neither the tactical nous nor the gravitas or pull to alter things in a different way. At least Koeman was a name, even if he was an arrogant bully who didn't care. But safe to say, it didn't work. Again.

Then, the stars aligned, and we had the opportunity to sign Ancelotti, 1 of the best most revered coaches in the world. On top of being available, he brings experience, exposure, calmness, connections, and a track record of winning. He is also a student of the game, trained under Arrigo Sacchi and is tactically astute as well as pragmatic, something we have been calling out for for years.

But the problem with appointing someone of his calibre, is people expect miracles.

The squad was patchy when Martinez failed to get players to believe in his methods.

Koeman made a bad squad worse by selling 3 of the best young stars in the squad and wasting hundreds of millions on overly expensive, older, bang average journeyman players in hopes of a quick fix to make us the best of the rest.

Allardyce took over his mess and realised there were no goals in the team, so spent another small fortune on 2 more quick fix short term signings.

Silva went the other way and spent even more money on expensive cast offs (and Richarlison) from other teams.

Ancelotti is 1 COVID interrupted year in to trying to fix 7 years of topsy turvy mis management and is left with the onerous task of the squad rebuild Moyes left us with in 2013, but hamstrung by the expensive flops that prevent any meaningful movement 1 way or the other.

He needs 2 years minimum from now, and if that means 2 years of treading water until we are in a position to challenge again, then so be it. Sometimes you need to take a step back to take 2 steps forward, and this seems like 1 of those occasions. We need a bit of patience.

Football is never ending. Not getting Europe in year 1 is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
Click to expand...
Cracking post.
 
Kever10 said:
I agree, but the problem within that is we went from Moyes to Martinez with no directors in place. Then we got a new owner and appointed our 1st DOF and a new manager who made it very clear that the previous manager was totally wrong about everything and went out of his way to do everything the opposite way to prove it. This meant alienating and replacing almost half of an entire squad in 2 years, and it failed spectacularly and expensively. So we appointed a 2nd manager to try and fix his mess, and let's be fair to Allardyce, we all knew it was a temporary, damage limitation tactic. Allardyce said what we all knew, the squad was a mess, but he wasnt well liked, so everyone dismissed it.

So we go and get a new Director of football and a new manager, both of whom felt that the previous approach was wrong. This negates the consistency of the DOF approach, as it was a complete reset. The new manager had similar ideas/ideals to Martinez, and was once again, a complete 180 from the previous approach. Unfortunately, like Martinez and Koeman before him, he was so stubborn and inflexible, that he refused to alter his approach for anyone, and if plan A didn't work, plan B was trying plan A again. On top of this, he was about as charismatic a leader as Gary Megson, and he had neither the tactical nous nor the gravitas or pull to alter things in a different way. At least Koeman was a name, even if he was an arrogant bully who didn't care. But safe to say, it didn't work. Again.

Then, the stars aligned, and we had the opportunity to sign Ancelotti, 1 of the best most revered coaches in the world. On top of being available, he brings experience, exposure, calmness, connections, and a track record of winning. He is also a student of the game, trained under Arrigo Sacchi and is tactically astute as well as pragmatic, something we have been calling out for for years.

But the problem with appointing someone of his calibre, is people expect miracles.

The squad was patchy when Martinez failed to get players to believe in his methods.

Koeman made a bad squad worse by selling 3 of the best young stars in the squad and wasting hundreds of millions on overly expensive, older, bang average journeyman players in hopes of a quick fix to make us the best of the rest.

Allardyce took over his mess and realised there were no goals in the team, so spent another small fortune on 2 more quick fix short term signings.

Silva went the other way and spent even more money on expensive cast offs (and Richarlison) from other teams.

Ancelotti is 1 COVID interrupted year in to trying to fix 7 years of topsy turvy mis management and is left with the onerous task of the squad rebuild Moyes left us with in 2013, but hamstrung by the expensive flops that prevent any meaningful movement 1 way or the other.

He needs 2 years minimum from now, and if that means 2 years of treading water until we are in a position to challenge again, then so be it. Sometimes you need to take a step back to take 2 steps forward, and this seems like 1 of those occasions. We need a bit of patience.

Football is never ending. Not getting Europe in year 1 is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
Click to expand...
Possibly the finest post I have read on this forum. Completely sums up the entire situation. I doth my cap to you Sir.
 

Kever10 said:
I agree, but the problem within that is we went from Moyes to Martinez with no directors in place. Then we got a new owner and appointed our 1st DOF and a new manager who made it very clear that the previous manager was totally wrong about everything and went out of his way to do everything the opposite way to prove it. This meant alienating and replacing almost half of an entire squad in 2 years, and it failed spectacularly and expensively. So we appointed a 2nd manager to try and fix his mess, and let's be fair to Allardyce, we all knew it was a temporary, damage limitation tactic. Allardyce said what we all knew, the squad was a mess, but he wasnt well liked, so everyone dismissed it.

So we go and get a new Director of football and a new manager, both of whom felt that the previous approach was wrong. This negates the consistency of the DOF approach, as it was a complete reset. The new manager had similar ideas/ideals to Martinez, and was once again, a complete 180 from the previous approach. Unfortunately, like Martinez and Koeman before him, he was so stubborn and inflexible, that he refused to alter his approach for anyone, and if plan A didn't work, plan B was trying plan A again. On top of this, he was about as charismatic a leader as Gary Megson, and he had neither the tactical nous nor the gravitas or pull to alter things in a different way. At least Koeman was a name, even if he was an arrogant bully who didn't care. But safe to say, it didn't work. Again.

Then, the stars aligned, and we had the opportunity to sign Ancelotti, 1 of the best most revered coaches in the world. On top of being available, he brings experience, exposure, calmness, connections, and a track record of winning. He is also a student of the game, trained under Arrigo Sacchi and is tactically astute as well as pragmatic, something we have been calling out for for years.

But the problem with appointing someone of his calibre, is people expect miracles.

The squad was patchy when Martinez failed to get players to believe in his methods.

Koeman made a bad squad worse by selling 3 of the best young stars in the squad and wasting hundreds of millions on overly expensive, older, bang average journeyman players in hopes of a quick fix to make us the best of the rest.

Allardyce took over his mess and realised there were no goals in the team, so spent another small fortune on 2 more quick fix short term signings.

Silva went the other way and spent even more money on expensive cast offs (and Richarlison) from other teams.

Ancelotti is 1 COVID interrupted year in to trying to fix 7 years of topsy turvy mis management and is left with the onerous task of the squad rebuild Moyes left us with in 2013, but hamstrung by the expensive flops that prevent any meaningful movement 1 way or the other.

He needs 2 years minimum from now, and if that means 2 years of treading water until we are in a position to challenge again, then so be it. Sometimes you need to take a step back to take 2 steps forward, and this seems like 1 of those occasions. We need a bit of patience.

Football is never ending. Not getting Europe in year 1 is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
Click to expand...
I don't expect any manager or DoF to just come in and wave a magic wand to make everything better. To be honest I don't really see anybody saying that, it's just a bit of a straw man argument that comes up when there's any criticism.

My concerns with Ancelotti and Brands aren't really related to the fact that we didn't finish in the top 6, they're more related to the fact that we still don't seem to have settled on a recruitment strategy, have no defined style of play, don't appear to be getting any better, don't really have a squad make up that you would expect to get better over time etc. I've said before, if we'd finished 10th this year with the likes of Gordon, Branthwaite, Nkounkou etc getting plenty of game time, and we were looking like we were learning how to play a possession based game or a counter attacking game or whatever then I'd be pretty positive about the future. We haven't though, we've shown no real desire to shake up the squad (to the point of suggesting players like Coleman and Sigurdsson may even get new contracts, and putting 2 keepers on the bench rather than pick anyone from the youth team) and have made absolutely no progress whatsoever in terms of the football we play. If anything it's got worse, and it's no more effective.

Ancelotti needs to be given more time, we can't just sack managers every time we hit a rough patch, but he also needs to be judged the same as any other manager would be. Personally i've seen very little to latch on to. There's just been no real improvement in either tangible or intangible terms, it's been 18 months of just muddling through so far, and at some point you have to say it's time to move past that stage. I'm not saying he can't do that, just that I'm not really seeing much evidence that it's happening.
 
Lanolin said:
I don't expect any manager or DoF to just come in and wave a magic wand to make everything better. To be honest I don't really see anybody saying that, it's just a bit of a straw man argument that comes up when there's any criticism.

My concerns with Ancelotti and Brands aren't really related to the fact that we didn't finish in the top 6, they're more related to the fact that we still don't seem to have settled on a recruitment strategy, have no defined style of play, don't appear to be getting any better, don't really have a squad make up that you would expect to get better over time etc. I've said before, if we'd finished 10th this year with the likes of Gordon, Branthwaite, Nkounkou etc getting plenty of game time, and we were looking like we were learning how to play a possession based game or a counter attacking game or whatever then I'd be pretty positive about the future. We haven't though, we've shown no real desire to shake up the squad (to the point of suggesting players like Coleman and Sigurdsson may even get new contracts, and putting 2 keepers on the bench rather than pick anyone from the youth team) and have made absolutely no progress whatsoever in terms of the football we play. If anything it's got worse, and it's no more effective.

Ancelotti needs to be given more time, we can't just sack managers every time we hit a rough patch, but he also needs to be judged the same as any other manager would be. Personally i've seen very little to latch on to. There's just been no real improvement in either tangible or intangible terms, it's been 18 months of just muddling through so far, and at some point you have to say it's time to move past that stage. I'm not saying he can't do that, just that I'm not really seeing much evidence that it's happening.
Click to expand...
Good post.
 
Kever10 said:
I agree, but the problem within that is we went from Moyes to Martinez with no directors in place. Then we got a new owner and appointed our 1st DOF and a new manager who made it very clear that the previous manager was totally wrong about everything and went out of his way to do everything the opposite way to prove it. This meant alienating and replacing almost half of an entire squad in 2 years, and it failed spectacularly and expensively. So we appointed a 2nd manager to try and fix his mess, and let's be fair to Allardyce, we all knew it was a temporary, damage limitation tactic. Allardyce said what we all knew, the squad was a mess, but he wasnt well liked, so everyone dismissed it.

So we go and get a new Director of football and a new manager, both of whom felt that the previous approach was wrong. This negates the consistency of the DOF approach, as it was a complete reset. The new manager had similar ideas/ideals to Martinez, and was once again, a complete 180 from the previous approach. Unfortunately, like Martinez and Koeman before him, he was so stubborn and inflexible, that he refused to alter his approach for anyone, and if plan A didn't work, plan B was trying plan A again. On top of this, he was about as charismatic a leader as Gary Megson, and he had neither the tactical nous nor the gravitas or pull to alter things in a different way. At least Koeman was a name, even if he was an arrogant bully who didn't care. But safe to say, it didn't work. Again.

Then, the stars aligned, and we had the opportunity to sign Ancelotti, 1 of the best most revered coaches in the world. On top of being available, he brings experience, exposure, calmness, connections, and a track record of winning. He is also a student of the game, trained under Arrigo Sacchi and is tactically astute as well as pragmatic, something we have been calling out for for years.

But the problem with appointing someone of his calibre, is people expect miracles.

The squad was patchy when Martinez failed to get players to believe in his methods.

Koeman made a bad squad worse by selling 3 of the best young stars in the squad and wasting hundreds of millions on overly expensive, older, bang average journeyman players in hopes of a quick fix to make us the best of the rest.

Allardyce took over his mess and realised there were no goals in the team, so spent another small fortune on 2 more quick fix short term signings.

Silva went the other way and spent even more money on expensive cast offs (and Richarlison) from other teams.

Ancelotti is 1 COVID interrupted year in to trying to fix 7 years of topsy turvy mis management and is left with the onerous task of the squad rebuild Moyes left us with in 2013, but hamstrung by the expensive flops that prevent any meaningful movement 1 way or the other.

He needs 2 years minimum from now, and if that means 2 years of treading water until we are in a position to challenge again, then so be it. Sometimes you need to take a step back to take 2 steps forward, and this seems like 1 of those occasions. We need a bit of patience.

Football is never ending. Not getting Europe in year 1 is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
Click to expand...

Great post.
 

Lob said:
Yeah makes you realise how far we 'haven't' come and what Carlo has been up against. Most of them same people downed tools again after boxing day.
Click to expand...

Injuries have killed us also. Gbamin and Gomes crocked immediately. Then Allan missing large chunks followed by Docuoure. We just can’t get away from the same midfielders playing week in week out all the time. We need a squad where there’s no chance of Siggurdson Davies Gomes Coleman Keane getting significant game time and no chance of all of these players getting game time at the same time.
 

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