2020/21 Carlo Ancelotti

[BlueToff]

Can you point me in the direction of the pre season we had please mate. I know we played Blackpool and Preston but I wouldn't exactly call that a pre season would you?

tbf though, and I know this isn't your point, but every team was in the same boat

it's certainly a factor as to why we didn't look as leggy in the first few games imo - everybody was starting from the same point, at about 50%

As the season's gone on, teams have got sharper. Fatigue is obviously going to be a massive issue and injuries have hit for all sides, but in terms of fitness within games, most teams look to be getting back to a level which you'd expect of teams 10 games into a season.

Us, on the other hand... well, we're flagging after 40 minutes

 

[maccavennie]

tbf though, and I know this isn't your point, but every team was in the same boat

it's certainly a factor as to why we didn't look as leggy in the first few games imo - everybody was starting from the same point, at about 50%

As the season's gone on, teams have got sharper. Fatigue is obviously going to be a massive issue and injuries have hit for all sides, but in terms of fitness within games, most teams look to be getting back to a level which you'd expect of teams 10 games into a season.

Us, on the other hand... well, we're flagging after 40 minutes

Yeah mate, my point was he was saying Ancelotti had an advantage as we had a pre season. I was just pointing out 2 warm up games isn't a pre season at all and yes of course this was the same for all.

 

[riddick]

He had the right set up with 433 - he just needed either Delph or Gbamin in there instead of Gomes who cant tackle/defend.

The fact he's started messing around with this 343 is crazy - go back to 433 and put Delph in the middle with Nkounkou at LB and stop messing around.

He did that against Newcastle and Delph never looked his way. It's like he went actively out of his way to avoid passing to Nkounkou.

 

[BlueToff]

He did that against Newcastle and Delph never looked his way. It's like he went actively out of his way to avoid passing to Nkounkou.

Yeah. It's weird this thing with Gomes.

First three games with him in there, we didn't have any issue in controlling the ball. I'm not saying he was the reason, but he was a factor.

he was poor v Liverpool then poor v Newcastle but in an advanced wide role (again, baffling from Carlo).

Against Burnley, we need to be giving Allan licence to drive on - same with Doucoure. I'd argue Allan to the right of the three and then Doucoure to the left. That's one other spot. It doesn't necessarily have to be the team's best tackler in there, but it has to be someone who can get their foot on the ball and help us build moves. I'd argue our best player at the moment for that is Gomes. Delph should be able to do it, but all he ever wants to do is his daft chop and then a crap 5-yard pass backwards.

 

[BlueToff]

Just play Kenny and Nkounkou as full backs. Not rocket science

Heck, even if he wants to go with Holgate at RB against Burnley to give us more height (Mina probably is suited to play Burnley so think him and Keane could work) I wouldn't blame him, but Nkounkou simply has to play. There's no reason, if he's fit, why he shouldn't.

 

[Lanolin]

For some more completely useless information, if you take Klopp’s points per game from his first 30 games (48 points) when he took over from Rodgers and spread it over 38 games it turns out exactly where they finished, 60 points and 8th place. So effectively he ran a 60 points season form with his Liverpool team for 30 games, continuing the level Rodgers had them at at the start of the season (and the season before)

Ancelotti has played 29 league games and got 46 points, which works out roughly the exact same points per game. Extrapolated over a season of 38 games this would be 60 points.

So although it’s pointless to compare them (which I do agree with), if people were to compare them for any reason then over a comparable number of premier league games (CA’s 29 to Klopp’s 30) then Ancelotti is producing the same form as Klopp did when he took over Liverpool. What should also be factored in is Klopp continued the form of Rodgers team before that who had been at that level of form for the 46 games before that. Ancelotti meanwhile picked up a squad that had been nowhere near 60 points form for any stretch of time and has Substantially improved our keague. So if anything Ancelotti has had a greater impact on Everton in the short term than Klopp did on Liverpool in the league. Given the qualities of the squads they both inherited, the mentalities of those squads, the conditions they’ve had to play in (one starting at the beginning of a season with fans, one starting with a team in trouble and then a pandemic hit) it’s hard to argue that Carlo hasn’t done well so far in the league.

Of course Klopp ironed out those inconsistencies over time to improve. The challenge for Ancelotti is to do the same. Again noting that Klopp improved Liveprool in the league by 16 points the next season and then plateaud at that level for another season actually gaining a point less.

The question we’re therefore asking is can Ancelotti take us from the sort of form that gets you 60 points a season to the type that gets you 76 and CL football? With more of his own signings, more time, maybe some better luck with injuries, why not?

The last few games have been frustrating but I actually think we’re where we should be. We’ve improved but are inconsistent. We need longer to see if the arc is one of progression or regression this season though rather than reactionary responses to individual games.

I don't really want to get bogged down talking about Klopp but again I think you're inadvertently highlighting one of the issues people are talking about. Klopp completely changed Liverpool's style of play. He has a 'philosophy' which the players have to buy into, it takes time to implement that properly, and when it isn't implemented properly it can lead to poor results. The same applies to Guardiola. If you're asking players to 'gegenpress' or play 'tiki-taka' when they aren't suited to it then it can backfire, and so you have to kind of take the rough with the smooth while they get used to it/you buy players to suit the style. We aren't implementing a new style though. There's no reason for it to take ages to get an improvement out of this team because all we're doing is trying to play the same way but be better at it. It just doesn't work as a comparison, no matter how much people might want to shoehorn it in.

 

[Cool_Blue]

I think for me, the most worrying thing is his apparent inability to sort out our defence, given that he’s Italian and has played in and managed teams with cast iron defensive set ups. The first thing for any manager to do is make it hard for the opposition to score, but we’re conceding goals for fun atm.

 

[number4.]

Klipperty across the park took two years to get into the top 4 and four years to win a trophy. And he didn't inherit as awful a squad as Ancelotti did.

Patience.

this is where I struggle with the CA appointment. Is he realistically a 5 year mananger? Not so sure

 

[Saint Domingo]

I don't really want to get bogged down talking about Klopp but again I think you're inadvertently highlighting one of the issues people are talking about. Klopp completely changed Liverpool's style of play. He has a 'philosophy' which the players have to buy into, it takes time to implement that properly, and when it isn't implemented properly it can lead to poor results. The same applies to Guardiola. If you're asking players to 'gegenpress' or play 'tiki-taka' when they aren't suited to it then it can backfire, and so you have to kind of take the rough with the smooth while they get used to it/you buy players to suit the style. We aren't implementing a new style though. There's no reason for it to take ages to get an improvement out of this team because all we're doing is trying to play the same way but be better at it. It just doesn't work as a comparison, no matter how much people might want to shoehorn it in.

Id disagree with this. The new style may not be as rigid a template as Pep’s tiki taka or Klopp’s pressing game but there’s no doubt in my mind that under Ancelotti we are trying to play a completely different way than we did before with far more of the ball on the deck

Koeman and Silva were 433 managers with pressing from the front, a high defensive line, a number 10 in behind, and two deeper lying midfielders. We often went long and chased into the corners, and we marked zonal.

We’re now trying to play out from the back far more. We don’t set up with a classic number 10 in 433. Our main striker isn’t moving much outside the width of the box. Our defence is sat deep but are encouraged to play out (sometimes to our detriment), and our set piece defence is completely different. It may be fair to say that Ancelotti is more of a pragmatist in that he flexes his style to the players he has (rather than shoehorning them into his template formation) but I don’t buy that Ancelotti’s football hasn’t required a transition from why we played under Koeman, Allardyce and Silva. It’s completely different in my view.

 

[Lanolin]

Id disagree with this. The new style may not be as rigid a template as Pep’s tiki taka or Klopp’s pressing game but there’s no doubt in my mind that under Ancelotti we are trying to play a completely different way than we did before with far more of the ball on the deck

Koeman and Silva were 433 managers with pressing from the front, a high defensive line, a number 10 in behind, and two deeper lying midfielders. We often went long and chased into the corners, and we marked zonal.

We’re now trying to play out from the back far more. We don’t set up with a classic number 10 in 433. Our main striker isn’t moving much outside the width of the box. Our defence is sat deep but are encouraged to play out (sometimes to our detriment), and our set piece defence is completely different. It may be fair to say that Ancelotti is more of a pragmatist in that he flexes his style to the players he has (rather than shoehorning them into his template formation) but I don’t buy that Ancelotti’s football hasn’t required a transition from why we played under Koeman, Allardyce and Silva. It’s completely different in my view.

Are you sure it's Everton you've been watching recently mate? I've seen a few posts of yours about how we're playing and I just don't recognise the points you're making in the team i'm watching at all. I'm not saying he hasn't made any changes to the style of play, but ultimately it's just a refinement of the same way we've played for years. James is miles better than anyone else we've had so we give him the ball more than we used to give it to Sigurdsson etc, but other than that there is no discernible difference in style. I doubt any neutral would be able to tall you how we play, because we just play generic football: pass it about a bit, knock it long a bit, get crosses into the box a lot etc. I'm not knocking it, i'm fine with us playing that way, but it's absolutely nothing like a change in footballing philosophy.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Are you sure it's Everton you've been watching recently mate? I've seen a few posts of yours about how we're playing and I just don't recognise the points you're making in the team i'm watching at all. I'm not saying he hasn't made any changes to the style of play, but ultimately it's just a refinement of the same way we've played for years. James is miles better than anyone else we've had so we give him the ball more than we used to give it to Sigurdsson etc, but other than that there is no discernible difference in style. I doubt any neutral would be able to tall you how we play, because we just play generic football: pass it about a bit, knock it long a bit, get crosses into the box a lot etc. I'm not knocking it, i'm fine with us playing that way, but it's absolutely nothing like a change in footballing philosophy.

We will agree to disagree on our differing perspectives on this then

 

[Jim Hopper]

I think for me, the most worrying thing is his apparent inability to sort out our defence, given that he’s Italian and has played in and managed teams with cast iron defensive set ups. The first thing for any manager to do is make it hard for the opposition to score, but we’re conceding goals for fun atm.

Mad thing is we signed the likes of Allan and Doucoure to give us some metal in middle and stop us being over run as we were last season. He’s also tried various formations now with 3 centre halves and it’s still not working.

 

[Lowste]

We are still not very good, and it will take time to rectify
I never thought Ancelotti would turn things round quickly, that would be a real ask of him
His initial aim will be to get us playing a certain way and getting the right players in
The problem at the moment is, he is trying to find the best formation (which can be frustrating)

one thing we do know and he knows he has inherited a fair amount of crap which will be difficult to move on

 

[BLUEBERT]

he is the Messiah !! and I should know I've followed a few !!

 

[jamieni]

Mad thing is we signed the likes of Allan and Doucoure to give us some metal in middle and stop us being over run as we were last season. He’s also tried various formations now with 3 centre halves and it’s still not working.

There’s something seriously wrong with our defence. I reckon Pickford is a large part of it. He seems to make the rest of them nervous. We need a proper holding midfielder too I think. Allan likes a tackle but he is also good driving forward. Gbamin or a Holgate sitting in and breaking up play would help.

there also seems to be oceans of space in front of teams when we give the ball away.