Donald Trump for President Thread

[SerenityNigh]

There is much wisdom here, grasshopper. Look at the opportunities out there for skilled tradesmen in this economy. I have advanced degrees in the arts. That, in retrospect, was just stupid from an economic standpoint. On the other hand, I wouldn't be the person I am without that education. Is a puzzlement.

If people get married, get employed, don't develop bad habits, and stay married, things are pretty likely to still work out though. For me, that's been the key. There is no substitute for a good marriage to make you happy and productive.

The best career development I've had was pursuing a 2nd bachelor's degree in a field to which I'm no longer employed and for which I still pay (nominal) student debt. Of course, within context I also made this decision as an adult/out of home, married, young-20s, so that probably weighs in my experience as well.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Oh, I dodged the bullet. I dropped out after the first year, seeing the bill and went and found a job I could work my way up in. Computers saved me, but I was able to do so largely due a family background in technology. I was raised around computers...so it was an easy transition.

But I have friends that have literally $100,000 in student loan debt. Largely because they were sold a bill of goods when they were young and impressionable. And we removed the idea of the Trades from high school, and judged the people that went to trade school.

They're laughing now.

Education is something I value incredibly highly, but we go about it in a terrible way. We're too tied to the past and things that mattered in the last century. We need to be teaching kids to think critically, and how to learn. Facts and calculators are always at our fingertips. A new way to look at the world is not. But we save that education for the higher reaches of college - and then price out the unwashed masses of that education. And then we expect everyone to have been able to afford it.

I just get a little irritated when a generation rags on Millenials for our (very real) faults...we came by them honestly and have a borderline smoking crater to dig the world out of...and then people have the gall to wonder why we just want to go sleep it off in the basement and be kids again?

On the whole, college education in America right now is worse than England's ability to develop players for International competition. The system is bloated and broken and few can find the right path. A return to trades and vocational training is very needed, and should not incur the cultural disregard it has.

 

[RaleighBlue]

I don't know where you see that. Nobody has accused Bill and Melinda Gates of anything. They seem like admirable folks, but I don't know them personally.

Some hate the wealthy just for being wealthy, and that is frustrating and destructive. I am in favor of the Gates' efforts, so long as they do not obstruct "the poor" from finding their own solutions. For some, I might be in the category of "the poor". For others, I might be in the category of "the evil rich". There are many eloquent Africans who are saying that a large part of their problem is grounded in the way all this foreign aid distorts local incentives in perverse ways.

When some individuals classify groups of other individuals, they embark on an exercise fraught with peril, whether those groups are "poor" or "rich", or "fill in this blank".

I recommend reading Thomas Sowell's Visions of the Anointed. Yes, I know I am being difficult, and my point is hard to see. If it was easier to explain, more would think as I do. At least that's my own personal fantasy.

I agree. But it's not hating the wealthy, not really. It's hating what they stand for. It's hating wealth..

It's hating that you have to live a hand to mouth existence, while others - many of whom are there purely by luck get to experience anything they wish at any whim. Wealth does not buy happiness of course. But it makes it a lot easier to achieve comfort and to reduce stress, both major players in happiness.

The gap is widening. That's the problem. If we don't try and do something about it now, it will end up getting violent. Because that's what history teaches us. When social mobility begins to breakdown, the underclasses will eventually revolt. Treating people as individuals is all well and good, and I agree with it on a personal level...but we are still a social organism, and their are forces at work through our culture that move mountains.

Groups are things. They're a deep part of human culture.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Fwiw from the early returns I've seen millenials appear to be voting in pretty decent numbers, at least higher than 2012 although obviously not at the rate the boomers are. Hopefully that improvement continues at the election date draws closer.

Quit showing me data when I'm slandering an entire generation.

 

[mezzrow]

Right but I guess what I don't get, is that we are talking about people that do not have the means to find their own solutions in places like Malawi where getting a clean drink of water is a challenge. Their efforts are not to just throw money at the problem, they are efforting to come up with sustainable solutions for the poorest of the poor in the world. Some incredibly smart people are working their tails off, because these problems are very hard to solve. Who knows if any of them can be, but you have to applaud them for trying.

I find it hard to be critical of a self made billionaire who is now using his money and influence to actually try to tackle problems in the world at home and abroad for no personal gain. Especially when you have people like Donald Trump out there who'd struggle to give a penny to a worthwhile cause unless he benefited from it in some way.

Understood. The problems they are faced with are problems that have been faced over millenia worldwide. The solutions have been developed in many places over time. We have no guarantees of our own solutions staying solved over time, I would hasten to add at this point.

As for those in the world's most dire situations, the most effective solutions are those that each culture is willing to sustain over time in best accord with its own culture and traditions. The task at hand is one of the hardest we face as mankind, which is to offer the possibility of longer, freer, healthier, more self-actualized lives for all of God's children. The missionary burden is not lightly taken, and is subject to dire misinterpretation over the years. Understand this going in, and it will free you from future disillusionment.

 

[SerenityNigh]

I agree. But it's not hating the wealthy, not really. It's hating what they stand for. It's hating wealth..

It's hating that you have to live a hand to mouth existence, while others - many of whom are there purely by luck get to experience anything they wish at any whim. Wealth does not buy happiness of course. But it makes it a lot easier to achieve comfort and to reduce stress, both major players in happiness.

The gap is widening. That's the problem. If we don't try and do something about it now, it will end up getting violent. Because that's what history teaches us. When social mobility begins to breakdown, the underclasses will eventually revolt. Treating people as individuals is all well and good, and I agree with it on a personal level...but we are still a social organism, and their are forces at work through our culture that move mountains.

Groups are things. They're a deep part of human culture.

I'm not convinced there is a large gap* in America right now, but maybe in Europe. I think the perceived wealth gap is very high. But access to basic goods is as easy as it's ever been, and access to support is probably better than ever as well. Maybe there are more wealth traps than before (no more high school-to-steel mill transition), but it's not like America has become the 2nd most wealthy nation in the world suddenly.

*Edit to say: of course there's a large nominal gap, but the increase in wealth of the average citizen in real terms, i.e. access to health, education, etc., doesn't seem to be decreasing. I think sometimes we pay too much attention to raw data and Gini coefficients when we talk about wealth gaps. Maybe there's others, but the two risks to wealth currently are student debt (which is still a volitional action) and health/insurance costs (for which I will reserve my vitriol and not speak further.)

 

[mezzrow]

I agree. But it's not hating the wealthy, not really. It's hating what they stand for. It's hating wealth..

It's hating that you have to live a hand to mouth existence, while others - many of whom are there purely by luck get to experience anything they wish at any whim.

This is a very short step away from Property Is Theft, you know? Who hates your wealth? Who sees you as the kulak?

 

[mezzrow]

I'm not convinced there is a large gap* in America right now, but maybe in Europe. I think the perceived wealth gap is very high. But access to basic goods is as easy as it's ever been, and access to support is probably better than ever as well. Maybe there are more wealth traps than before (no more high school-to-steel mill transition), but it's not like America has become the 2nd most wealthy nation in the world suddenly.

*Edit to say: of course there's a large nominal gap, but the increase in wealth of the average citizen in real terms, i.e. access to health, education, etc., doesn't seem to be decreasing. I think sometimes we pay too much attention to raw data and Gini coefficients when we talk about wealth gaps. Maybe there's others, but the two risks to wealth currently are student debt (which is still a volitional action) and health/insurance costs (for which I will reserve my vitriol and not speak further.)

Outstanding, el serenissimo. Excellent points here.

Quit showing me data when I'm slandering an entire generation.

No wonder everybody's bailing out on this forum. Next they'll be expecting reason and truth.

 

[RaleighBlue]

I'm not convinced there is a large gap in America right now, but maybe in Europe. I think the perceived wealth gap is very high. But access to basic goods is as easy as it's ever been, and access to support is probably better than ever as well. Maybe there are more wealth traps than before (no more high school-to-steel mill transition), but it's not like America has become the 2nd most wealthy nation in the world suddenly.

Data:
http://inequality.org/wealth-inequality/

The wealthy and upper middle class continue to do well. The lower classes continue to do poorly. The middle class is falling into one of those two groups, generally on the lower side of the line.

It's more of an issue right now, to me, for the middle classes long term planning. We've lost pensions entirely, which leaves retirement planning up to the individual. The problem with that is that unless you're doing really quite well, it's difficult to find money to save...especially for 'a long time from now'.

Becoming comfortable is more difficult and takes longer. My grandfather worked 40 hours a week and supported 3 kids and a wife and owned his home. He also has a pension to be retired on. He was the norm. His story is now quite an exception.

 

[RaleighBlue]

This is a very short step away from Property Is Theft, you know? Who hates your wealth? Who sees you as the kulak?

Property is an imagined memetic construct. Like nationality or religion.

I don't hate wealth, though I understand those who do. I more have a problem with people that feel that their wealth is somehow entirely theirs. As though the collective did not assist in its creation. Everyone is a product of our society, we all owe ourselves and our situations to it. I am simply opposed to those that feel as though they do not need to return the contribution.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Quit showing me data when I'm slandering an entire generation.

lol

 

[Tubey]

I think there's a massive intelligence gap in the USA going by the polls, which is a bigger problem than the wealth one. To put it bluntly, it seems anyone with a degree becomes immune to being stupid enough to vote for Trump, whereas you really do seem to see some bottom of the barrel idiots supporting Trump.

http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presi...cent-among-white-men-without-college-degrees/

Breitbart try and spin that as "working class", but I think that's too broad - I think there's a level below what we'd traditionally class as working class who are truly dumb, as in have barely functioning brains.

Like this:

Don't like calling people with other views stupid but... no, they're stupid. Just completely stupid. About 45% of America are officially stupid.

Stop being stupid.

 

[ilikecheese]

I'm not convinced there is a large gap* in America right now, but maybe in Europe. I think the perceived wealth gap is very high. But access to basic goods is as easy as it's ever been, and access to support is probably better than ever as well. Maybe there are more wealth traps than before (no more high school-to-steel mill transition), but it's not like America has become the 2nd most wealthy nation in the world suddenly.

*Edit to say: of course there's a large nominal gap, but the increase in wealth of the average citizen in real terms, i.e. access to health, education, etc., doesn't seem to be decreasing. I think sometimes we pay too much attention to raw data and Gini coefficients when we talk about wealth gaps. Maybe there's others, but the two risks to wealth currently are student debt (which is still a volitional action) and health/insurance costs (for which I will reserve my vitriol and not speak further.)

I think housing is another widening gap/risk to wealth.

Used to be you got a job and you bought a house. In many places around the country today, that simply is not a reality.

Having lived in the Bay Area making a pretty decent wage for a while, it simply was not a reality for me to own even a condo*. I am now in Seattle and it's really the same thing up here.

*unless I wanted to live in the worst part or in the middle of nowhere

 

[RaleighBlue]

*Edit to say: of course there's a large nominal gap, but the increase in wealth of the average citizen in real terms, i.e. access to health, education, etc., doesn't seem to be decreasing. I think sometimes we pay too much attention to raw data and Gini coefficients when we talk about wealth gaps. Maybe there's others, but the two risks to wealth currently are student debt (which is still a volitional action) and health/insurance costs (for which I will reserve my vitriol and not speak further.)

Treating the edit separate, since I didn't see it.

Access to health/education IS decreasing for the poor. College prices have jumped exorbitantly. Health costs have risen to such a degree that we had to begin the inevitable march toward socialized medicine even though we actively hate the idea (as a nation). Additionally, free clinics and womens' health clinics are being shut down throughout the south due to ridiculous abortion laws.

It's not decreasing for comfortable white dudes. Hell, my life is grand. But I'm not America.

 

[SerenityNigh]

I think housing is another widening gap/risk to wealth.

Used to be you got a job and you bought a house. In many places around the country today, that simply is not a reality.

Having lived in the Bay Area making a pretty decent wage for a while, it simply was not a reality for me to own even a condo*. I am now in Seattle and it's really the same thing up here.

*unless I wanted to live in the worst part or in the middle of nowhere

Yes, indeed. Shamefully, I should know this well. I won't say what industry I'm currently employed in.