JAYMULL
Player Valuation: £6m
know what you mean are we are too quiet at times but the atmosphere at the pit is vile mate
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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 2
- Thread starter daza_1973
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toffeejack
Player Valuation: £100m
I've always said they wouldn't do anything tbh. We may finish above them next season if we have another good transfer window in the summer.
Bernard´s Magic Touch
Player Valuation: £150k
The Totally Football Podcast this week had two Liverpool fans on Monday, Mellisa Reddy and Sacha Goryunov. It was worse than usual, Liverpool fans can only talk about football if it's related to Liverpool.
Every match had to be linked back to Liverpool. Absolutely awful.
Every match had to be linked back to Liverpool. Absolutely awful.
MikeH72
Player Valuation: £100m
They only really rested Firmino tbh, it was their first XI other than that and Henderson who's injured.
toffeejack
Player Valuation: £100m
One of their players has been a refugee twice! It's all FSG's fault, not providing enough funds to compete with teams like this.
Gwladysstreetlad
Player Valuation: £50m
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
The realization is definitely setting in amongst them now. You are well and truly at the weaseling stage of proceedings. There are a multitude of fan articles emerging now essentially along an “it’s not fair” narrative as opposed to the “everyone is terrified of us”.
The main strands of the argument seem to be that it is unfair that they don’t win the league if they get a set amount of points. Essentially Manchester City are essentially cheating by being miles better than them. This frustration and entitlement will grow and lead to a searing jealousy, bitterness and hatred developing towards City (which is already well under way). Whats going to be funny, is pretty soon most of them will cheer for United over City (if that hasn’t already happened). The general fickle nature of their fan support and their invented rivalry with United will be laid quite bare through this process (remember when they tried to make out they were brothers in arms with City?)
What underpins this change is a growing acceptance of reality. That they are not a serious threat to City and ultimately their owners won’t spend enough money for them to be. They backed themselves into such an intellectual corner with their uncritical support for Klopp that they now look quite stupid, given the mega money he has spent he still looks miles off having a top team. There will be lots of spin emerging over coming months.
From moment one (in fact from well before the season started) I predicted them to have a fast start and then hit a dip in the autumn. I remember much derision for this, particularly when I seemed relatively nonplussed at their early season form. No doubt all the idiots who were carrying on that Liverpool will blitz everyone will now hold their hands up and admit they were wrong and I was right (again) but humility amongst Kopites seems to run at a very low level. I can’t actually remember any Kopite ever admitting they were wrong and I was right, despite me calling pretty much every season correctly. They are the Donald Trump of the football world really, garish, oafish, brash but alas we digress.
What I maintained was there would be a dip, even when they were on a scintillating run of narrow wins against the likes of Brighton, Leicester and Crystal Palace. What can now no longer be in doubt, is that there has been a dip. What is also irrefutable is that the dip is now lasting longer than we many first anticipated. The nature of the debate is no longer “will there be a dip” or “how long will the dip last” but rather “how deep will it go”.
So far the severity of the dip hasn’t gone too far. For the most part they have slipped up in games you would expect them too (albeit the level of performance has been quite lifeless). Last night hints at a deepening of the dip though. They are a rank poor side, haven’t won a CL game in decades etc. There is now a worry for Liverpool that they start slipping up, and even losing games they ought to win in a moderate season (say one that sees them finishing 6th). That hasn’t happened yet but I will be keeping an eye on that one.
The other potential question now has to be whether a deeper, longer dip may actually become a full blown crisis. The sort that saw the back of Houllier, Rodgers and Benitez before Klopp. While I would still caution against this happening we are approaching a point where this is now a valid and worthwhile point of debate. While Klopp has generally always had these dips each season and found a way out of them, there are several factors that are unique to this season which put him under pressure.
We have touched in great detail before about fatigue. I don’t wish to labour said point unnecessarily other than to reiterate all of those points remain true. Last season was extremely long, starting before most of their rivals and finishing significantly after. You then add in the World Cup and Klopp’s propensity to not give injured players enough rest time before rushing them back (wait to see Henderson & Keita thrown straight back in, and then look at Lallana and Sturridge who are a shell of the players they were previously for the results in the medium term of this). Salah & Firmino are a long way off where they were last season. Some of this is reverting back to norm after a freakishly good season but I do think there is fatigue there and the performances may continue to dip as the season goes on. Most kopites are almost blissfully ignorant to this and proclaimed a freakish overperformance as the new “norm” and crowned them the best in the world (even at their freakish best they were still some way off that title) but that nonsense of that idea will start to be shown up as the season progresses.
There are other factors unique to this season though. Klopp has recruited badly. For the first time since he’s been there he has bought badly. Despite their best efforts Alisson is a solid good goalkeeper (similar to Pickford) but will make mistakes. Fabinho looks what he is, a lad who had the occasional Brazil cap at full back out of place in midfield in the Premier League. Keita, who we were told would have piped us all down by September on here by reds and shown why he will be the player of the season has fallen so far below those standards it’s laughable.
I remember one particular goading me to come back in September and apologise to him for my skepticism of the player. Well it’s November now and we haven’t heard a peek out of him. As I’ve said, humility, integrity and honesty are really not values they seem to possess for the most part. He hasn’t made any attempt to correct what he put. I was wrong to some degree in my analysis and said he was essentially a Gana level player. That is untrue, he is substantially below Gana’s level and his stats are eerily similar to Tom Davies, yet he’s 4 years older than him.
Without going much further down the rabbit hole Klopp has spent over £100 million on those 2 midfielders. Not only did the team need to improve the midfield (the weak area) so the team is suffering, but for his reputation it’s hard to justify that you are working miracles when you are spending record fees on players who are substantially below the level of a lad like Emre Can who they let leave.
The final (major) difference is the loss of Buvac. Again I remember the argument that Ljinders is a good coach so it wouldn’t matter being made as a counter, and again this missed the point in it’s entirety. Despite Ljinders having questionable coaching abilities (I remember regularly seeing his under 16’s get trounced at Finch Farm, and he has completely flopped as a manager) the issue is more that Klopp and Buvac were a team and had been for well over a decade. Some managers can change Assistants and be ok, but it looks like Klopp was very tied to his, who was the brains behind the gegenpressing strategy and communicated the approach internally. They have been soundly beaten in every European away game since he left and the league performances and results have suffered as a result.
All of these above factors suggest they may not be able to pull themselves out of this dip so easily. While some are clinging to the idea it’s a tactical shift away from gegenpresing that’s seen a change of style I find this naïve. Very little (if anything) has emerged in the local or national media from any player or part of the coaching staff that it was the plan. If it was, fine, here are huge questions as to whether Klopp can tactically succeed as a manager operating on that basis, but the fact he hasn’t tried it in 10+ years before this would be demonstrative in the answer. (This will be the position taking by the Klopp in supporters).
Buvac leaving I have more faith in as a reason for this. The problem for most reds, is this conundrum won’t be solved by Ljinders (or any more capable coaches). If the application of Klopps strategy to be successful relies on Buvac it’s unlikely a substitute will be found.
The final most logical answer for the lack of energy in defence (but also crucially in attack) I would suggest is fatigue. Given Klopp has always front loaded seasons (and generally his teams finish with a bit of a whimper) there really has to be questions asked as to how this season will play out. I suspect you will see a similar pattern, dip, recovery, slow petering out but it may well be played out at a level down. A crisis could well happen before the recover comes though.
I spoke about a key set piece loss could be a trigger point. While it may be last night, I believe it will be averted. They are still ok to complete their objectives in that competition (they still think they are European heavyweight despite not beating one of the top 5-6 teams, Madrid x 2, Barca, Juventus, Bayern etc) so believe they will qualify.
The league is a different matter, it’s more punishing especially with City’s form. They know they have a trip to the Etihad which is a very likely further 3 point handicap. Another slip up piles the pressure on. A defeat against Fulham this weekend could really trigger a crisis.
The last time it felt this was 2 years ago. I remember Gylfi Sigurdsson basically taking liberties and dominating their midfield in a Swansea win at Anfield. What began that slip though, was an initial dip in the autumn which saw them begin to fall behind leaders Chelsea. Klopp recovered that season but it is questionable he does it this season.
We will see. The astute amongst them can see the storm clouds emerging and are already trying to dampen expectation. The problem is, for the most part they were the idiots whipping up the mob into a fury 3 months ago and I can’t see the crowd taking their medicine that it’s another season of top 4 consolidation seriously.
As always, if only they’d have taken my advice, and been sensible, realistic and honest from the start it could have been averted. They never learn.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
Winning the Europa League is a worry for me. While people don't treat the competition seriously you know they would lord it up. I'd prefer them to go through as 2nd as they will get knocked out as soon as they face decent opposition (hopefully they won't be able to avoid this to the final this year).
That being said, the Europa is normally quite strong I think Arsenal and Chelsea would defeat them over 2 legs. Monaco will probably go into it so another strong team. I'd even fancy Spurs or United later in the season to defeat them. They would probably be about 10th favourite for the Europa league even if they got into it, and it would undermine the league season. Lets be honest though, these are going to be well out of title contention by February with or without the Europa League.
Saint Domingo
Player Valuation: £90m
The spectre of 2005 always hangs large though. I just want them out soon as possible. They shouldn’t have been near the final last season but still made it. The way they’re playing at the moment they wouldn’t win the Europa and their fans won’t let Klopp prioritise that over the prem. I personally think they’re a busted flush this season unless they buy a world class creative midfielder in January. The way possession teams have been allowed to control the games against them and dominate possession never happened last season.
Pabbers
Player Valuation: £60m
Its ALL about salah / Mane, if them or even just 1 of them dont perform they are toothless, and have no other plan.
They have 4 or 5 players that would be nowere near City/Chelsea and maybe even United's first team.
Last season they were clinical, finishing from front 3 was superb. They took the chances.
They have 4 or 5 players that would be nowere near City/Chelsea and maybe even United's first team.
Last season they were clinical, finishing from front 3 was superb. They took the chances.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
That 2005 team (and the subsequent team they built) had some world class players in though and a top manager in big situations. They have neither of those now. Gerrard and Alonso are so far advanced of their midfield now it's laughable. Fabinho, Milner, Wijnaldum, Henderson etc would just chase those two lads around and not get near them. They were also used to winning trophies and knew how to get over the line as players.
The one thing I take issue with is the idea they will want to focus on the league. This is not a dignified group of supporters who are aiming for only the best (in the way say United are who view the Europa League as a mild embarrassment). They are a spivvy who are happy to shortcut and scumbag their way to any success and then George Orwell (2+2=5) their way to manipulate what it represents. It would soon be decided that whatever they won was actually really important (magically more important than when United won it 2 years earlier). Christ they proclaimed themselves 2nd even though they finished 4th. Think Finch and Brent lobbing a kettle over a pub and proclaiming themselves winners of the quiz.
They will also be well out of the title race by February when the EL kicks in. I could see them putting all resources into it, which will give them an advantage over other sides.
I'm happy with either, but more happy with them getting through and being knocked out.
Yarrgh
Player Valuation: £70m
Not terrified by them at all now. They're beatable now. If we recreate against them what we did against United then we have a very good chance indeed.
I agree fully with most of your points. Energy levels are tailing off as they always do, but they really have gone into the trough early - not enough quality beyond the first 11 to help them through this. Buvacs is a big miss - a key component to the coaching set up who obviously worked very and complimented Klopp.
Last year, I thought Klopp did very well in ensuring that there were no runs of bad form, and turned around bad results almost seemingly in the next match which was to his credit. I am sure I have wrote my thoughts that the big test for him will be when the press turns against him. I think this could happen very soon if a bad spell develops further. He hasn't had the full vitriol and mockery of the gutter press yet, and I think he will react particularly badly. His antics will not be tolerated when he isn't offering anything on the field and he has a history of walking away when the pressure mounts.
Your advice is sound for almost all teams however. The only exception being City, who can go full out in every game as they are loaded with stellar quality beyond the first 11 and can rest players as required. A season needs to be managed carefully, and the squad utilised to maintain results and fitness levels of all playing staff and enable variations in approach/ tactics to maximise the chance of success in every game. I see the likes of Sarri, Emery, Mourinho and Pochettino as knowing this, but Jurgen doesn't seem to get this at all. (I don't know about Silva to be fair but have no reason to doubt him over this; he seems to be in a somewhat comfortable position of just playing the team into playing like a team without short term pressure and this will be something we will have to see towards the end of this season at the earliest.)
BlueInNZ
Player Valuation: £10m
Just watched the highlights. Now is it just me or ... that first goal. Well, if we had let that in the fume hear would be stiffling. The second.... Van Dike, best defender in the world (allegedly) shyly showing his ass the block the shot, keeper letting one in from a couple of km out from the goal. Yep, theres problems at the mill
Alisson fell like a tree instead of diving. JP saves that with ease mate.
thirdmantackle
Player Valuation: £35m
reminded me of a few ashley williams attempted blocks...
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