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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

catcherintherye said:
For those of you who have followed my posts on this, you will know that in general I am quite measured, but also that I have been predicting this sort of decline for some time. When they got Klopp I said he would be a good appointment, woud improve them a fair bit, but would likely crash it at the back end. I actually backed them to win the CL in 2019 and felt they'd win the league last year too (but also called them not winning it correctly in 2019, where you knew they'd bottle it if someone got close). So it's not that I am just predicting negatives for them, I try to be as forensic as possible.

What was clear, in spite of their initial defence, is this was not just a short term problem, nor was it down to injuries. When players have returned, that they bemoaned being out, they were still losing games.The one who haven't returned, played in the game sthat date back to Watford away last year, where they were roundly beating. They've lost to Arsenal 3 times since then, been hammered for 7 at Villa, for (what should have been 5) at City and City should have got 5 at Anfield too. Since that Watford game, they are tracking a side that gets mid to high 50's in terms of points, over a period that is now longer than a season. Thats not a short term crisis, it's not even really a medium term problem, it's looking like a longer term problem with a collapse being attached to it at the back end.

Klopp is repeating what happened at Mainz and Dortmund. It's not a coincidence. He burns his players out and places enormous physucal demands on them, which leads them to get injured and renders them inneffective when they return or get older. As with much in life, his strengths are his weaknesses, to a degree you don't get the success they've had, without the crash to follow.

The question is where next. Being as objective as possible, and trying to give them some props, there is probably a world where they get an experienced head in who might be able to stabilise them, potentially abovethe mid 50 points bracket. Maybe mid high 60's.I was thinking last night, their downturn reminds me a fair bit of Pochettino's at Spurs, who in 2019 showed form which resembled around 45-50 points a season (albeit a slightly smaller sample, as he was sacked) but they did fall from a slightly lower level. Klopp is like a more exagerated version and I suspect the fall may be more dramatic. If I was viewing it as a trading option, I would say they haven't necessarily hit their floor yet.

The squad is now a lot older, he's taken one of the younger squads in the league, and through continuity has taken them to now being one of tmhe oldest in the league. Last time I checked they were 6th oldest, but very much trending upwards. But Klopp is not really a manager who works well with older players. There are managers and leagues that do, but Klopp and the EPL isn't really it. A fairly simple example, but Mane, Salah and Firmino, 2 nearly 29 and one 30 by next season really now need to be utilised as number 9's. They'd probably all be quite good at that, but they can't all do it. You try and "get away with them" how Ancelotti hides Sigurdsson, or James, or to a degree Coleman when he plays. You work a bespoke system that maximises their experience and quality but reduces the physical demands on them.

Some managers are good at that. Ancelotti is one. Mourinho in theory is another, potentially Allegri from Juventus could do so. The downside is, you never get a clear style from Ancelotti, so I'm not saying one is great, Klopp is awful, but you can have 2 good managers who just have different skills and ideological approaches to coaching/squad management. So that is one option, probably the conservative option for them. They get an expeirenced head, accept the moment has past to make big sales, and hope a more experienced coach can work better with experienced players. Sort of what Spurs have done with Mourinho (who has trended them upwards, just mot as much as people normally associate with him). It's worth noting though, in relative and real terms, Mourinho has been backed heavily. I am not sure the next Liverpool manager will have such backing, so there needs to be some realism.

The optoon B, is they start the process again. Accept it's 2 years out of the CL or whatever, get a number in their mind the wage bill needs to get to survive being out of the CL, and embark on a dramatic cost reduction exercise, of moving players. Where replacements are sought, a mixture of their alleged great young players, and some smart "value" picks, so Kabak and Davies start next season for example. You look to probably have the wage bill, invest 50% again in replacements, and you essentially start the process again.

The drag to this, is I don't think Klopp would suit this, or really be prepared to hang about for this. The above would probably take 2-3 years to even itself out (best case) and then you re back to another 3-4 year period of trying to catch up, where you hope everything goes perfectly. I don't think he wants to spend 6-7 years doing that. I don't think many top coaches would, but you would probably get a good young coach. I've mentioned him before, someone like Graham Potter would suit such a system, maybe they could entice Nagelsman, or the fella from Southampton.

The issue is, in all scenario's, it's hard to see where Klopp fits in to the medium term planning, either from his, or the clubs perspective. Whats interesting is the fans are turning now. He was absolutely slaughtered all over the shop last night. I always feel, where a manager is openly criticised like that, you've sort of crossed the rubicon, and in honesty there's not a lot of a way back for him. I'd also sense, the players probably know it, and it undermines his authority.

The same happened to Rodgers in his final full season, it just collapsed and his authority went. It went when James and Carlo taught him a football lesson and were 3-0 after half an hour at Anfield. After that he was always just treading water. A bit like us with Martinez, 10-12 league games is a long time, if your team aren't playing for you and the season implodes. Another 6 or 7 defeats and each one worsening criticism is going to make it much much worse for him too.
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never go into this thread but happy I did for such an interesting piece..

question though : if you were in their shoes.. wouldn’t you take it.. or in ours.. knowing you would get a title within a few seasons and then have to do a rebuild... for a team that hasn’t seen a league title in decades... wouldn’t you take it without hesitation?
 

ForeverBlue92 said:
I see the Red Echo is reporting on that Liverpool go fund me page for Mbappe.

Could they sink any lower? Apparently £555 has been raised with some mug sending them £100 lol

More money than sense some people.
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Can imagine them raising the money and finally throwing an offer in for him... bid gets accepted... “alright Kylian lad I know you’re on £300k P/W and have CL football, unfortunately we can’t offer you that but how does 50k and a copy of LFCs greatest hymns book signed by Sinbad from Brookside sound? As a bonus we’ll reserve a space on the title parade bus from two seasons ago with an inflatable cup... ??”
 
BornBlue76 said:
never go into this thread but happy I did for such an interesting piece..

question though : if you were in their shoes.. wouldn’t you take it.. or in ours.. knowing you would get a title within a few seasons and then have to do a rebuild... for a team that hasn’t seen a league title in decades... wouldn’t you take it without hesitation?
Click to expand...
Yes and I wouldn't even cry about losing Sigurdsson when he got nobbled by Allison or Gomes and Bernard didn't score the season afterwards. I wouldn't have also claimed to be the greatest team the history of football has ever seen or shot fireworks at the city's landmarks.

Though I wouldn't want our players to be PEDded up asthmatics or have such an ego manic buffoon as coach.
 
ForeverBlue92 said:
I see the Red Echo is reporting on that Liverpool go fund me page for Mbappe.

Could they sink any lower? Apparently £555 has been raised with some mug sending them £100 lol

More money than sense some people.
Click to expand...
That £100 is like the busker putting a fiver and some pound coins in his hat to try and create the impression that people are being generous.

Not that I am implying that it's a gift or owt.
 

Yarrgh said:
Yes and I wouldn't even cry about losing Sigurdsson when he got nobbled by Allison or Gomes and Bernard didn't score the season afterwards. I wouldn't have also claimed to be the greatest team the history of football has ever seen or shot fireworks at the city's landmarks.

Though I wouldn't want our players to be PEDded up asthmatics or have such an ego manic buffoon as coach.
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Yip, we've been there, done that and got the t-shirt. We paid our dues with fathead Koeman.

And all we got out of it was an almost relegation battle! lol

Difference is, we as a fan base are humble and stable enough, and have actual self-awareness... Just enough to admit that we made the stuff up by appointing him. We bore the consequences of our own actions like freakin' grown ups, and we didn't cryarse about injuries or whatever other excuses suited our agenda... Etc.
 

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