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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

BlueStevie35 said:
Herr Funboy actually said that before the Derby, making it all that funnier



I don’t actually mind Peanut Head, he seems very honest in his views, Hendo Kid on the other hand is your typical faux hard man scally giving it large online, but would 100% crap one if he tried it in public
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Repeatedly says "in my whole life " .....isn't he about 10 years old ?????
 
catcherintherye said:
For those of you who have followed my posts on this, you will know that in general I am quite measured, but also that I have been predicting this sort of decline for some time. When they got Klopp I said he would be a good appointment, woud improve them a fair bit, but would likely crash it at the back end. I actually backed them to win the CL in 2019 and felt they'd win the league last year too (but also called them not winning it correctly in 2019, where you knew they'd bottle it if someone got close). So it's not that I am just predicting negatives for them, I try to be as forensic as possible.

What was clear, in spite of their initial defence, is this was not just a short term problem, nor was it down to injuries. When players have returned, that they bemoaned being out, they were still losing games.The one who haven't returned, played in the game sthat date back to Watford away last year, where they were roundly beating. They've lost to Arsenal 3 times since then, been hammered for 7 at Villa, for (what should have been 5) at City and City should have got 5 at Anfield too. Since that Watford game, they are tracking a side that gets mid to high 50's in terms of points, over a period that is now longer than a season. Thats not a short term crisis, it's not even really a medium term problem, it's looking like a longer term problem with a collapse being attached to it at the back end.

Klopp is repeating what happened at Mainz and Dortmund. It's not a coincidence. He burns his players out and places enormous physucal demands on them, which leads them to get injured and renders them inneffective when they return or get older. As with much in life, his strengths are his weaknesses, to a degree you don't get the success they've had, without the crash to follow.

The question is where next. Being as objective as possible, and trying to give them some props, there is probably a world where they get an experienced head in who might be able to stabilise them, potentially abovethe mid 50 points bracket. Maybe mid high 60's.I was thinking last night, their downturn reminds me a fair bit of Pochettino's at Spurs, who in 2019 showed form which resembled around 45-50 points a season (albeit a slightly smaller sample, as he was sacked) but they did fall from a slightly lower level. Klopp is like a more exagerated version and I suspect the fall may be more dramatic. If I was viewing it as a trading option, I would say they haven't necessarily hit their floor yet.

The squad is now a lot older, he's taken one of the younger squads in the league, and through continuity has taken them to now being one of tmhe oldest in the league. Last time I checked they were 6th oldest, but very much trending upwards. But Klopp is not really a manager who works well with older players. There are managers and leagues that do, but Klopp and the EPL isn't really it. A fairly simple example, but Mane, Salah and Firmino, 2 nearly 29 and one 30 by next season really now need to be utilised as number 9's. They'd probably all be quite good at that, but they can't all do it. You try and "get away with them" how Ancelotti hides Sigurdsson, or James, or to a degree Coleman when he plays. You work a bespoke system that maximises their experience and quality but reduces the physical demands on them.

Some managers are good at that. Ancelotti is one. Mourinho in theory is another, potentially Allegri from Juventus could do so. The downside is, you never get a clear style from Ancelotti, so I'm not saying one is great, Klopp is awful, but you can have 2 good managers who just have different skills and ideological approaches to coaching/squad management. So that is one option, probably the conservative option for them. They get an expeirenced head, accept the moment has past to make big sales, and hope a more experienced coach can work better with experienced players. Sort of what Spurs have done with Mourinho (who has trended them upwards, just mot as much as people normally associate with him). It's worth noting though, in relative and real terms, Mourinho has been backed heavily. I am not sure the next Liverpool manager will have such backing, so there needs to be some realism.

The optoon B, is they start the process again. Accept it's 2 years out of the CL or whatever, get a number in their mind the wage bill needs to get to survive being out of the CL, and embark on a dramatic cost reduction exercise, of moving players. Where replacements are sought, a mixture of their alleged great young players, and some smart "value" picks, so Kabak and Davies start next season for example. You look to probably have the wage bill, invest 50% again in replacements, and you essentially start the process again.

The drag to this, is I don't think Klopp would suit this, or really be prepared to hang about for this. The above would probably take 2-3 years to even itself out (best case) and then you re back to another 3-4 year period of trying to catch up, where you hope everything goes perfectly. I don't think he wants to spend 6-7 years doing that. I don't think many top coaches would, but you would probably get a good young coach. I've mentioned him before, someone like Graham Potter would suit such a system, maybe they could entice Nagelsman, or the fella from Southampton.

The issue is, in all scenario's, it's hard to see where Klopp fits in to the medium term planning, either from his, or the clubs perspective. Whats interesting is the fans are turning now. He was absolutely slaughtered all over the shop last night. I always feel, where a manager is openly criticised like that, you've sort of crossed the rubicon, and in honesty there's not a lot of a way back for him. I'd also sense, the players probably know it, and it undermines his authority.

The same happened to Rodgers in his final full season, it just collapsed and his authority went. It went when James and Carlo taught him a football lesson and were 3-0 after half an hour at Anfield. After that he was always just treading water. A bit like us with Martinez, 10-12 league games is a long time, if your team aren't playing for you and the season implodes. Another 6 or 7 defeats and each one worsening criticism is going to make it much much worse for him too.
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Top class post and something I have been calling for a while.

German brother in law is a big Dortmund fan and loves Klopp BUT always said, if Klopp was kept, he would have relegated them. He has a period of max efficency and after burning out the players leaves a scorched earth behind him.

This is going to get better and better.
 

Yarrgh said:
They'll be down there with harpoons and away days to Forest Green complaining about vegan pasties. In many ways that's the most fun type of football. I hope they get a former player with a badly rendered image as their face as manager. It's the best they could hope for. Also I heard Kevin Ward is looking to buying a new club!
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I too would would complain about vegan pasties. You should have seen my uncle at his daughter's vegan wedding. It was almost as bad as when I was best man at a dry wedding. I still had them rolling during the speech...they must have taken care of business between church and reception.
 
Wat Tyler said:
I see Klopp said in his presser that missing out on CL would not leave too much damage to the club.

www.theguardian.com

Klopp says missing top four would not mean long-term damage to Liverpool

Jürgen Klopp said missing out on Champions League qualification would not damage Liverpool in the long term
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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This is pure jarg, that I’m sure it made the owners wince.

They make between £80-100m out of the CL dependant on where they finish, and that’s merely the TV and success cash.

I’d wager every single sponsorship they have, has CL clauses that increase the revenue, I’d guesstimate that them not qualifying will be a true cost at least £120m. So for him to say it won't be a problem when their entire expenditure is based on forming part of it, is for the birds.

They’ll have lost another £85m this season in match day revenues.

Their Sherman owners have invested £0 into that club, and it’s fairly obvious it needs major money spending on it this summer. The majority of their prime assets are all now coming to 29/30 and the kind of money they could have recycled from say selling Salah to rebuild a couple of years back, simply won’t be there now.

So missing out on the CL gravy train at this point of time, would set them back years, and they’ll defo turn on FSG when the money just isn’t there to get them back on track.

They could still turn it round and qualify btw, but with 12 points out of the last 36 now, it’s going to take a remarkable turn with only 11 games left.
 
Cool_Blue said:
I know it’s been a weird season like, but how many owners would stomach 5 home defeats on the trot and not take action? We’ve been poor enough at home, but I can’t imagine the meltdown there’d be on here if Carlo had lost the last 5 at home and we’d scored only 1 goal.
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They’re without a win at home in 7 having scored 2 goals, and one of them was a Salah dive for a pen.

Funny like, unbeaten at home in over 3 seasons to making history by becoming the first RS side ever to lose 5 on the spin.
 

DownOnTheUpside said:
I love how one fella says 'atkinson is biased against liverpool' and they all just take it as gospel. Normally this would be paired with 'manchester referees' but Mr Atkinson is just a humble lad from a village near leeds. What reason could he have for his murderous hatred towards liverpool fc?
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Yeah,hates them going all the way back to Rodwell!!!
 
catcherintherye said:
For those of you who have followed my posts on this, you will know that in general I am quite measured, but also that I have been predicting this sort of decline for some time. When they got Klopp I said he would be a good appointment, woud improve them a fair bit, but would likely crash it at the back end. I actually backed them to win the CL in 2019 and felt they'd win the league last year too (but also called them not winning it correctly in 2019, where you knew they'd bottle it if someone got close). So it's not that I am just predicting negatives for them, I try to be as forensic as possible.

What was clear, in spite of their initial defence, is this was not just a short term problem, nor was it down to injuries. When players have returned, that they bemoaned being out, they were still losing games.The one who haven't returned, played in the game sthat date back to Watford away last year, where they were roundly beating. They've lost to Arsenal 3 times since then, been hammered for 7 at Villa, for (what should have been 5) at City and City should have got 5 at Anfield too. Since that Watford game, they are tracking a side that gets mid to high 50's in terms of points, over a period that is now longer than a season. Thats not a short term crisis, it's not even really a medium term problem, it's looking like a longer term problem with a collapse being attached to it at the back end.

Klopp is repeating what happened at Mainz and Dortmund. It's not a coincidence. He burns his players out and places enormous physucal demands on them, which leads them to get injured and renders them inneffective when they return or get older. As with much in life, his strengths are his weaknesses, to a degree you don't get the success they've had, without the crash to follow.

The question is where next. Being as objective as possible, and trying to give them some props, there is probably a world where they get an experienced head in who might be able to stabilise them, potentially abovethe mid 50 points bracket. Maybe mid high 60's.I was thinking last night, their downturn reminds me a fair bit of Pochettino's at Spurs, who in 2019 showed form which resembled around 45-50 points a season (albeit a slightly smaller sample, as he was sacked) but they did fall from a slightly lower level. Klopp is like a more exagerated version and I suspect the fall may be more dramatic. If I was viewing it as a trading option, I would say they haven't necessarily hit their floor yet.

The squad is now a lot older, he's taken one of the younger squads in the league, and through continuity has taken them to now being one of tmhe oldest in the league. Last time I checked they were 6th oldest, but very much trending upwards. But Klopp is not really a manager who works well with older players. There are managers and leagues that do, but Klopp and the EPL isn't really it. A fairly simple example, but Mane, Salah and Firmino, 2 nearly 29 and one 30 by next season really now need to be utilised as number 9's. They'd probably all be quite good at that, but they can't all do it. You try and "get away with them" how Ancelotti hides Sigurdsson, or James, or to a degree Coleman when he plays. You work a bespoke system that maximises their experience and quality but reduces the physical demands on them.

Some managers are good at that. Ancelotti is one. Mourinho in theory is another, potentially Allegri from Juventus could do so. The downside is, you never get a clear style from Ancelotti, so I'm not saying one is great, Klopp is awful, but you can have 2 good managers who just have different skills and ideological approaches to coaching/squad management. So that is one option, probably the conservative option for them. They get an expeirenced head, accept the moment has past to make big sales, and hope a more experienced coach can work better with experienced players. Sort of what Spurs have done with Mourinho (who has trended them upwards, just mot as much as people normally associate with him). It's worth noting though, in relative and real terms, Mourinho has been backed heavily. I am not sure the next Liverpool manager will have such backing, so there needs to be some realism.

The optoon B, is they start the process again. Accept it's 2 years out of the CL or whatever, get a number in their mind the wage bill needs to get to survive being out of the CL, and embark on a dramatic cost reduction exercise, of moving players. Where replacements are sought, a mixture of their alleged great young players, and some smart "value" picks, so Kabak and Davies start next season for example. You look to probably have the wage bill, invest 50% again in replacements, and you essentially start the process again.

The drag to this, is I don't think Klopp would suit this, or really be prepared to hang about for this. The above would probably take 2-3 years to even itself out (best case) and then you re back to another 3-4 year period of trying to catch up, where you hope everything goes perfectly. I don't think he wants to spend 6-7 years doing that. I don't think many top coaches would, but you would probably get a good young coach. I've mentioned him before, someone like Graham Potter would suit such a system, maybe they could entice Nagelsman, or the fella from Southampton.

The issue is, in all scenario's, it's hard to see where Klopp fits in to the medium term planning, either from his, or the clubs perspective. Whats interesting is the fans are turning now. He was absolutely slaughtered all over the shop last night. I always feel, where a manager is openly criticised like that, you've sort of crossed the rubicon, and in honesty there's not a lot of a way back for him. I'd also sense, the players probably know it, and it undermines his authority.

The same happened to Rodgers in his final full season, it just collapsed and his authority went. It went when James and Carlo taught him a football lesson and were 3-0 after half an hour at Anfield. After that he was always just treading water. A bit like us with Martinez, 10-12 league games is a long time, if your team aren't playing for you and the season implodes. Another 6 or 7 defeats and each one worsening criticism is going to make it much much worse for him too.
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It will be Plan B with Slippy.
He's young and desperate enough to take the job on without the assurance of too much money for a rebuild.
The fans won't turn on him for a couple of years or so while there is a proud chest-beating bringing through of mediocre kids from their academy who will "need time to settle" and "make mistakes as it's all past of the learning experience"
The older players will be moved out of the door to reduce the wage bill and will be written off by the fans as either "traitorous" or "made to look good by the rest of the team".
2-3 years without Europe and the fans will call for his head and they will get a proper manager in as the player churn will have been completed and it's time to spend/rebuild properly.
 
My City mate has sent me this post from their Blue Moon forum

Just gonna pour another cuppa and enjoy it again


baggy said:
TBF the Liverpool social media outlets and fan channels have stopped looking for excuses now and gone back to being suicidal blaming the players, manager and owners. Toxic, toxic club... You absolutely love to see it.
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Indeed. There is quite a difference in the output from Liverpool supporters (and our lovely UK sports media too..) as of this week compared to the bragging about and analysis of the league standings a mere 75 or so days ago.

The aftermath of our draw at home to West Brom together with Liverpool's 2-1 win over Spurs the next evening 75 days ago left many Blues concerned that we were falling behind in title race this season. The post-match analysis on 'Bluemoon' was full of lots of disappointed Blues ready to concede the title once again to Liverpool, given the 8 point gap between us and them.

And of course, Liverpool's supporters were cock-a-hoop at the position they were in, given our injury profile and the fact that we weren't exactly pulling up any trees. I just had a quick peek at some of the contributions to RAWK from that time and it is clear that, notwithstanding injuries (VVD etc) and the odd dropped points here and there, their support was anticipating another march to the title..

A few random examples, each from different contributors, make the point of how their support saw the situation unfolding (and as I say, the same could be seen in the media output at the time):

'At our best we are way better than any other team in this league. We have lacked the consistency of previous seasons, mainly due the the injuries, but I haven't seen anyone else come close to our best performances.'

'Eat our dust!!'

'This one is over, the worst of the schedule is done and we are getting players back. See ya!'

'It's over. We waited 30 years and now we're about to win it back to back. That's LFC for ya.'

'West Brom next. Fantastic opportunity for us to put a winning sequence together and serious pressure on the chasing pack. We're the best team in this league (I don't think it's even close) but the nature of the season so far has been a bit (lol) of a leveller. With Ox back, Jones cementing his spot as a top class midfielder, Thiago and Shaq soon to be back we're getting numbers back at a crucial point in the season in a crucial part of the pitch.'

'This morning is what happens when the less well resourced teams have to play midweek. Going to be a rough 6 weeks for them - Suspect the table will look very familiar by late Jan'

'Now that is how you attack #.20!'

'It really is one game at a time but it’s testament to this squad that we are top. Congested schedule with some huge setbacks with VAR and injuries yet they continue to deliver. If we can get Milly, Thiago and Shaq back training the options look great with Jota and Kostas to add too.'

'When do we think the null and void shouts will start this season? I'm betting end of Jan'

'I wonder whether after that drubbing some of our less exalted opponents will start treating the games they have against us as a dead rubber and save their energy for games they can win? Particularly as the number of games played in a week increases it will be tempting for managers to say, "save your strength for Brighton lads". Perhaps we need to hand out another spanking or two before that happens. Bring on WBA.'

'I get overwhelmed by how much I love this current squad that we have. From back to front they're all absolutely incredible.'

'We are cruising in a Ferrari in 1st gear. Ole has his foot full down on the gas of his clown car to try and sidle up next to us - the whole thing is rattling, plumes of smoke are coming from the engine, a back wheel has just come off and is bouncing down the road and the cassette player is starting to chew up the best of Simply Red tape that is blasting out of the broken windows.'

'As for City, 8 clean sheets in 9 I heard. Does that include CL games too? Should that be anything for concern or are they more likely to start conceding more before they fix their attacking woes (even Palace have scored as many as them!).'

I'll stop there, as I'm sure you get the drift.

We've still got a job to do to regain the title and anything could happen between now and May, so I'm not even going to tempt fate. If we win it I shall, as ever, 'quaff deeply from the keg of victory' but only when we win it.

Pity for them that some of our Scouse chums didn't heed the old King James' Version warning that 'Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall'..
 
JelavicBrate2 said:
TBH I don't mind the Irish fella, other than his nonsense before they lost 7-2, he's pretty reasonable, although he does go too far. However the other divvy is unbearable with his fake Scouse accent, nobody talks like that, he's a poundland John Bishop. He'll probably get slapped by a fellow RS, for all his carrying on when we come out of lockdown, being the cultists they are.
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If you went to the pub for a quiet couple of pints and he arrived on the table next to you I honestly think you would just have to take him out. What an annoying little prat he is. Insufferable just like the rest of them.
 

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