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Everton "special" Talksport 9:00pm Monday 10th Aug 2015

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Can someone summarise what this was all bout please? Been in work all day, 75 pages is too much.

Collymore doing a special on us mate, talking about why the club have never been sold, are the board just hanging on waiting for a huge pay day, we shouldn't be loaning players, specially with all the sky money etc coming in. Saying Earl should be giving something back to the club, why have we spent the least of all the prem clubs on transfers, who's actually in charge at the club. Also, had fans ringing in, @the esk played a blinder when he was on.
 
Stan Collymore is alright, Saggers is a huge knobhead, Elstone has gone for a mahogany effect tan, Dave from BU needs to clear his throat, Kenwright is searching 25/8 and Robert Earl is a greasy bellend.

This but Collymore is a melt. promised much and delivered nothing.

How very Everton.
 
Just a rumour but I've heard Kenwright has been ill for a while and has taken a turn for the worst in the last week, which was why he wasn't at the game on Saturday. Apparently it's made him quite keen to sell but make of it what you want.
 

Whilst I agree with this if football was not a regulated business, the implications of FFP mean that significant investment in the team and wages in isolation is limited or unsustainable.

We can prioritise the team in the event of a capital injection but the rest of the investment in the stadium etc must follow quickly.

True to an extent. I don't have time looking up specifics right now so forgive the generalizations but let's say our revenue is around 120m. Going up soon too. Our wages are 57%-ish IIRC. Now I know this is a complex calculation and I am simplifying things here but that leaves us room to inject an additional 50-60m p/year NET in transfers and new wages. So yes it's "limited" ... but "limited" in a way that we'd all be utterly thrilled to bits if someone was willing to spend to that level (even if they didn't do anything about the stadium immediately). It's also a three year window -- someone could buy us, spend 100m on players before this window closes and we'd be able to make it work with FFP.

I made top mail in this afternoons mailbox on f365. Will be interesting to see what (if any) replies are in tomorrow mornings mailbox.

Congrats. Saw that this morning (time difference) and wondered if that was a GOTer.

@the esk

Although I understand the concept of injecting capital into a business, I'm not really sure what the business rationale is for doing it in the case of Everton (as opposed to the fan rationale).

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the board members bought their shares for a total of xx million (say 50 million). The club now has an independent market worth (note not any presumed asking price but what it is worth) of, say, 150 million. At the moment therefore if all the shareholders cash out they receive a profit of 3x their initial investment.

Sure that's why most of us want new owners. Yeah you can try to flip a club and turn a profit but this isn't a business in any traditional sense and lots of people have written lots of words about the myth of football being a business. When teams you're competing against are run by people who could not care less about making a profit (City, Chelsea etc.) you are going to have a rough time trying to run your football club like a business and also see success on the pitch.

Anyone who wants to make money with a football club won't buy Everton. Why? You need to spend hundreds of millions to climb (from our average of the last 5 years) from 5/6 to at least 4? Or you could buy a struggling Championship or even League One club for peanuts, spend tens of millions rather than hundreds, and presto you are on the Premier League TV rights gravy train. You're likely never going to compete at CL level but you don't care. You could then flip that club for more than you spent (or just rake in the profits).

Yeah that type of owner is going to be better at commercial stuff, stadiums, merchandise, sponsorship etc. but it won't see us be any more successful than we have been for the last 10 years given how much the playing field around us is changing.

However, the best owners, the ones who don't care about turning a profit, we are the kind of club they would want to buy. Great history, fans, existing squad good enough to not need a total overhaul. Stadium issue is immaterial to someone with that money (many of them love building a new stadium). That's the only owner we can get or should want. The "make a profit" type of owner would be another stopgap who (maybe) keeps us in the top-half of the Prem.
 
@the esk

Although I understand the concept of injecting capital into a business, I'm not really sure what the business rationale is for doing it in the case of Everton (as opposed to the fan rationale).

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the board members bought their shares for a total of xx million (say 50 million). The club now has an independent market worth (note not any presumed asking price but what it is worth) of, say, 150 million. At the moment therefore if all the shareholders cash out they receive a profit of 3x their initial investment.

IF they inject capital into the club of, say, 150 million to build a new stadium, they therefore reasonably have to expect that this will increase the value of the club to 150 million (what it is worth without that investment) plus the 150 million (investment) plus a reasonable profit on the 150 million investment (as a return for risk and using that money when it could have been placed elsewhere).

So we now have a notional worth for the club of 300 million + say 15 million.

Is a new or improved stadium (as opposed to increasing TV revenue, which currently just 'happens' without investor involvement) ever going to increase the worth of the club to that amount?

It's a similar argument to building a new stadium/revamping Goodison anyway. How long is it going to take for the costs to be covered by increased revenue? Again, given the size of proposed stadia and the size of potential crowds and the resistance of local fans to ticket price increases, the purely financial case for that investment is questionable.

So we have a board, where the main financial backers (Earl plus anyone who may or may not have fronted up any of Bill's cash) are currently looking an a steady increase in the capital value of their investment because of the growing amount of general Premier League marketing revenue and TV rights revenue which will happen whether they are active or whether they sit on their hands.

Do they double their investment and exposure in the club - by the 150 million investment - to provide a marginal and arguable increase in value in the total investment?

So that is solution a) or b) - board invest or outside investor comes in with capital injection.

Solution c) is that the board sell up and new investors take over. Again, what is the rationale for the board to sell? They are sitting on a healthy increase on their initial investment. The only way it currently looks like going is up. The risk to that investment has been tiny over the last few seasons and, even at a minimal level of revenue investment in wages and players, it looks like relegation is little more than an unlikely scenario.

So the threats to their investment would come from a drying up of TV revenue (possible but unlikely), relegation (again possible but unlikely) or a minor hit to revenue from a highly unlikely scenario of 35,000 fans following davek's example and staying at home on match day.

What possible inducement is there for a change in the current situation (outside a Manchester City or West Ham scenario)?

That's why I have to agree with the dismaying conclusion that the esk came to when asked: the current state of affairs will continue as it has been (because there is no valid business reason for the board to act in any other way).

(My economics exams were a very long time ago, so I may well be misunderstanding some vital aspect of capital or revenue or return on investment!)

I think you present the arguments and dilemma facing the existing Board and potential investors looking at Everton very well mate.

As has been demonstrated for the last 16 years, the Board and major shareholders have not felt it necessary to invest capital in the club, rationalising that a combination of sweating existing assets (the stadium) to the nth degree, rising broadcasting revenues, availability of debt, clever and successful player trading combined with a successful youth/academy programme, moderate “success” on the pitch and an ever loyal fan base is sufficient to see a rise in value of the club’s equity.

My argument today is that we are reaching an inflection point where the larger clubs not only have a massive advantage in terms of assets, but have income streams growing so fast that the previous model deployed by the Board cannot be sustained. We cannot continue to defy the odds, over-achieve relative to income and expenditure, keep pulling rabbits out of the transfer hat and academy forever – the laws of probability just do not allow it.

Hence there’s a real danger of the top of the Premiership getting so far away from us financially that no-one would invest the capital required to bridge the gap (it could be argued we are already at that point) and even worse a couple of bad seasons could see us a genuine relegation candidates or worse.

The effect on the value of the equity would be significant if the above occurs. Thus, for the Board, for possibly the first time in 15 years, there’s an inherent risk in doing nothing. No longer is doing nothing an almost risk free way of making your “investment” grow in value.

The only way to mitigate that risk is to invest capital in the team, stadium and commercial enterprises associated with the club or allow others to do so.

The first priority would be to invest further in the team to mitigate the reduced performance risk and attempt to close the performance gap with the bigger clubs.

The second priority is a higher income producing stadium. Now debt model doesn’t work as the interest payments swallow the increase in revenues as far as a new stadium or stadium redevelopment is concerned, thus the capital required can only come from equity, loans at less than commercial rates or public/joint development subsidies.

Thirdly working capital is required to allow the effective running of commercial operations to increase future commercial revenues, create brand awareness etc, etc.

So to conclude, from my prospective the club owners have gone past the point whether they can consider the incremental returns achieved by an injection of capital, they are at the point where if they don’t invest, or allow others to invest alongside or sell completely they run a very real risk of losing the returns they have “earned” to date.
 
With our game being the early kick off Saturday, maybe we will get some attention on BT Sports as well with all that's happening. Although they'll probably just talk about Liverpool the whole morning.
 
With our game being the early kick off Saturday, maybe we will get some attention on BT Sports as well with all that's happening. Although they'll probably just talk about Liverpool the whole morning.

Everton v Southampton will be commented on through the lens of each clubs connection to Liverpool. The RS will be mentioned more than us or Saints in that game.
 

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