Everton Youth Teams Thread

[Cameron Manning]

Maybe If Brands tried to get Unsworth out it would be like banging his head against a brick wall if Unsworth is close to Kenwright and Mrs. Baxindale, Imthink Brands is much more valuable to the club than Unsy.

 

[catcherintherye]

I didn't say you did, I said many people do. So only one of us is wrong and it's not me.

My point was that many people in this thread have their opinion on Unsworth and treat literally everything that happens with confirmation bias. If a player isn't playing it's proof that Unsworth is glory hunting for personal gain rather than improving players. If you point out a player has improved then it will be argued that he would have improved more if handled differently. On one hand you say that 18 year old Anthony Gordon isn't inexperienced at under 23 level, and on the other you say that Unsworth hasn't picked him enough. It's not balanced, i'm simply trying to play devil's advocate to add that balance, but you think that's a pointless argument because it might mean you're not right.

For one reason or another there seems to be a lot of criticism of Unsworth knocking about. I'm sure some of it is valid but I do feel some is quite harsh. There are a few points worth noting;

1) The likelihood is, if he plays older players in the 23's there's more than a reasonable chance pressure is being placed on him to do so. There is a narrative that Brands will want younger players and Unsworth won't, I suspect where it exists it may be as much the opposite. There will be players on big salaries for younger players who we want to shift and that will be seen as a priority, to get them playing to put them in the shop window.

2) If Brands was unhappy with Unsworth in his role, he would move him on. The fact he's here into a 2nd year suggests to me he is happy enough with his work.

3) Loans are not always easy to find. I know it caused a bit of a debate on a different thread, but loans are not that easy to find. There's not an awful lot in it for the club loaning the player, as they will likely develop a young player for another team then have no chance of keeping them. I would imagine that difficulty, more than Unsworth wanting to keep players is what causes players not to be moved on.

The above doesn't give an easy solution to the issue though, which is that young players are being held back by Unsworth who is selfishly blocking loans and keeping them for his own personal glory.

The reality is, compared to most PL teams he has passed more young players up to the first team than most. If I were being highly critical I would say the big problem we've had is players kicking on once they've joined the first team. Outside of Calvert Lewin it's hard to see many who have really improved their game. To me it's been a perennial problem for Everton.

His job is to pass players up to the first team, once they are there, it is really the first team coaches job to improve/develop them.

 

[Lanolin]

For one reason or another there seems to be a lot of criticism of Unsworth knocking about. I'm sure some of it is valid but I do feel some is quite harsh. There are a few points worth noting;

1) The likelihood is, if he plays older players in the 23's there's more than a reasonable chance pressure is being placed on him to do so. There is a narrative that Brands will want younger players and Unsworth won't, I suspect where it exists it may be as much the opposite. There will be players on big salaries for younger players who we want to shift and that will be seen as a priority, to get them playing to put them in the shop window.

2) If Brands was unhappy with Unsworth in his role, he would move him on. The fact he's here into a 2nd year suggests to me he is happy enough with his work.

3) Loans are not always easy to find. I know it caused a bit of a debate on a different thread, but loans are not that easy to find. There's not an awful lot in it for the club loaning the player, as they will likely develop a young player for another team then have no chance of keeping them. I would imagine that difficulty, more than Unsworth wanting to keep players is what causes players not to be moved on.

The above doesn't give an easy solution to the issue though, which is that young players are being held back by Unsworth who is selfishly blocking loans and keeping them for his own personal glory.

The reality is, compared to most PL teams he has passed more young players up to the first team than most. If I were being highly critical I would say the big problem we've had is players kicking on once they've joined the first team. Outside of Calvert Lewin it's hard to see many who have really improved their game. To me it's been a perennial problem for Everton.

His job is to pass players up to the first team, once they are there, it is really the first team coaches job to improve/develop them.

Fully agree with all that.

 

[catcherintherye]

I totally get what you’re saying and I’m not arguing that you’re wrong but as I said above, it’s important to note the alternate viewpoints.

Firstly, and being deadly serious, if brands isn’t willing to sack unsworth despite being so unhappy that he can’t even bear to watch the team play, then we need to sack him. He’s supposed to be in control of our football operations and he has a seat on the board, if he’s either scared to sack him or is willing to be undermined on something so fundamental to his role, then he’s not the man for the job.

You mention Gordon not playing at the end of last season like it’s a bad thing. Most people seem to agree that he’s been much better this season though, as in a hugely improved player. We have to concede then, that those two things may not be unrelated. Circumstantially, The evidence suggests that he’s been handled well.

Why has Feeney not gone on loan? I don’t know. Maybe nobody wants him. Maybe teams want him but nobody we’d be happy for him to go to. Maybe we think he would benefit more from our coaches.

What is certainly absurd is the idea that unsworth blocks loans in general. Loads of the young lads have gone out - Dowell, Connolly, Pennington, Williams, Robinson, bowler, Broadhead, Virginia and many more have all gone out in the last couple of years. What good has it done any of them though? Do we really want Feeney to be in the position that Virginia is for example? Loans are an option, but let’s not make out like it’s always preferable because clearly it’s not.

On the loans thing (and I've covered it in the post above) Unsworth has said he wanted a loan for Feeney. He has regularly said he wants loans for players. I remember a couple of years back, he was as angry as I remember him after we under performed and drew against Arsenal 2-2, citing that the game had had a number of scouts in attendance (looking at Evans) and that lots of players had missed a vital opportunity to get a decent loan (as it was towards the end of August). He may just be a very good actor, but to me it's not consistent with someone who desperately blocks loans.

The reality is, loans are hard to come by. Every PL team wants to offload their young players to sides in the Championship, and there are a limited number available. There is some talk that we need to get someone in to help with this, but to my knowledge this was the remit of Joe Royle, and we still seemed to struggle. Perhaps we have to accept our young players may be good, but in a competitive market don't do enough to get managers to want to take them on loan?

 

[catcherintherye]

Maybe If Brands tried to get Unsworth out it would be like banging his head against a brick wall if Unsworth is close to Kenwright and Mrs. Baxindale, Imthink Brands is much more valuable to the club than Unsy.

This is all speculation though. I mean Unsworth wasn't given the managers job, even on a temporary basis on two separate occasions. No member of the board ever even sat in on a press conference with him. It wouldn't suggest to me a member of staff who is indispendable.

Maybe you are correct, but it could be that it's a bit of a conspiracy theory to build links between sections of the club we don't like/rate to try and simplify an issue that is more complex.

 

[blueloon]

On the loans thing (and I've covered it in the post above) Unsworth has said he wanted a loan for Feeney. He has regularly said he wants loans for players. I remember a couple of years back, he was as angry as I remember him after we under performed and drew against Arsenal 2-2, citing that the game had had a number of scouts in attendance (looking at Evans) and that lots of players had missed a vital opportunity to get a decent loan (as it was towards the end of August). He may just be a very good actor, but to me it's not consistent with someone who desperately blocks loans.

The reality is, loans are hard to come by. Every PL team wants to offload their young players to sides in the Championship, and there are a limited number available. There is some talk that we need to get someone in to help with this, but to my knowledge this was the remit of Joe Royle, and we still seemed to struggle. Perhaps we have to accept our young players may be good, but in a competitive market don't do enough to get managers to want to take them on loan?

Your comments re loans being hard to come by etc are spot on, and I’ve swung both ways on this today. It was the earlier post on Charsley which set me thinking. Charsley has been a big asset to our club through two PL2 winning teams, and whatever people think of Unsworth he’s part coach, part mentor , part father figure to kids like Charsley and inspires loyalty from them . Ignore whether Charsley should or shouldn’t be playing now , my first thoughts were that we’d let this kid down , how come Unsworth, a respected figure outside our club, hasn’t been able to guide him to a career with another club? Then I tried to answer that question and couldn’t , getting a loan deal for kids ain’t easy and even giving them away to say a League 1 club is different to a loan where we may help financially. So your post resonated with me. And I still don’t have an answer !

 

[catcherintherye]

Your comments re loans being hard to come by etc are spot on, and I’ve swung both ways on this today. It was the earlier post on Charsley which set me thinking. Charsley has been a big asset to our club through two PL2 winning teams, and whatever people think of Unsworth he’s part coach, part mentor , part father figure to kids like Charsley and inspires loyalty from them . Ignore whether Charsley should or shouldn’t be playing now , my first thoughts were that we’d let this kid down , how come Unsworth, a respected figure outside our club, hasn’t been able to guide him to a career with another club? Then I tried to answer that question and couldn’t , getting a loan deal for kids ain’t easy and even giving them away to say a League 1 club is different to a loan where we may help financially. So your post resonated with me. And I still don’t have an answer !

It's hard isn't it. It's my understanding that Charley was offered a new contract, which in truth I can't see much sense in. Though it sounds harsh, I do think we have to be cut throat.

That being said, you are absolutely right that the period between say 17-22 is incredibly stressful for young players. At one extreme, with the right bit of luck etc may lie a Premier League contract and in all likelihood financial security for the rest of their lives. At the other, may well be a part time career at maybe conference North (see lads like Brewster & Donohue) and probably having to completely re-train and re-orientate their lives. In honesty, probably being in a bit of a hole. So it's easy to see why it's so stressful.

I think it's really hard to get loans though. I am not wholly against loans, they have their benefits but overall I'd say they are a little overrated. What I'd challenge though is the idea they are easy to acquire and that it's Unsworth who's preventing them. I doubt it's happening, and if it were the implications go far beyond Unsworth to the board and the DOF.

It's hard though. When our players take on league 1 opponents they are normally at a similar level. Charsley is no standout at that age group and at 22 won;t be getting much better. It's a big commitment for a team at League 1/2 level to take a chance on him.

 

[maccavennie]

I was gutted that Charsleys loan at Bolton never worked out.

Ive always liked him, I like the positions he gets himself into, always good for a goal and will play anywhere for the good of the team.

Wherever he does go in the future, I hope he gives it a good go and makes a decent career for himself

 

[blueloon]

It's hard isn't it. It's my understanding that Charley was offered a new contract, which in truth I can't see much sense in. Though it sounds harsh, I do think we have to be cut throat.

That being said, you are absolutely right that the period between say 17-22 is incredibly stressful for young players. At one extreme, with the right bit of luck etc may lie a Premier League contract and in all likelihood financial security for the rest of their lives. At the other, may well be a part time career at maybe conference North (see lads like Brewster & Donohue) and probably having to completely re-train and re-orientate their lives. In honesty, probably being in a bit of a hole. So it's easy to see why it's so stressful.

I think it's really hard to get loans though. I am not wholly against loans, they have their benefits but overall I'd say they are a little overrated. What I'd challenge though is the idea they are easy to acquire and that it's Unsworth who's preventing them. I doubt it's happening, and if it were the implications go far beyond Unsworth to the board and the DOF.

It's hard though. When our players take on league 1 opponents they are normally at a similar level. Charsley is no standout at that age group and at 22 won;t be getting much better. It's a big commitment for a team at League 1/2 level to take a chance on him.

Well Charsley was definitely on the “Released” list last July, ironically so was Joe Hilton who he played against last night. I sense a definite change is occurring, which I assume but don’t know is Brands influence. It feels like we’ve moved more players on than previous years. Charsley and Hilton are examples of that , and with Virginia being loaned it’s left us with only u18s goalkeepers at U23s level . Odd. Only 5 Scholars from the 2017 intake out of 12 players moved up with some players like Michael Collins, Elliot Richards looking good at one time and no new players have been brought in . It’s like we’re having a pause and clear out at U23s as well as reducing the 1st team squad.
For me loans serve a purpose in giving needed game time in their development but they depend on the player, they can’t turn an average player into a great player , some thrive and progress others don’t . And of course our three English players on the pitch on Sunday all benefitted from loan spells earlier in their career. You touched upon nobody replacing Joe Royle earlier , maybe that’s something that needs addressing too.

 

[Stephenlloyd]

For one reason or another there seems to be a lot of criticism of Unsworth knocking about. I'm sure some of it is valid but I do feel some is quite harsh. There are a few points worth noting;

1) The likelihood is, if he plays older players in the 23's there's more than a reasonable chance pressure is being placed on him to do so. There is a narrative that Brands will want younger players and Unsworth won't, I suspect where it exists it may be as much the opposite. There will be players on big salaries for younger players who we want to shift and that will be seen as a priority, to get them playing to put them in the shop window.

2) If Brands was unhappy with Unsworth in his role, he would move him on. The fact he's here into a 2nd year suggests to me he is happy enough with his work.

3) Loans are not always easy to find. I know it caused a bit of a debate on a different thread, but loans are not that easy to find. There's not an awful lot in it for the club loaning the player, as they will likely develop a young player for another team then have no chance of keeping them. I would imagine that difficulty, more than Unsworth wanting to keep players is what causes players not to be moved on.

The above doesn't give an easy solution to the issue though, which is that young players are being held back by Unsworth who is selfishly blocking loans and keeping them for his own personal glory.

The reality is, compared to most PL teams he has passed more young players up to the first team than most. If I were being highly critical I would say the big problem we've had is players kicking on once they've joined the first team. Outside of Calvert Lewin it's hard to see many who have really improved their game. To me it's been a perennial problem for Everton.

His job is to pass players up to the first team, once they are there, it is really the first team coaches job to improve/develop them.

A couple of points
1) brands wasn’t at Everton in the 17/18 season and at the end of that year with nothing to play for the under 23 could probably finish 5th at best, he continued to play hennen & grant, who both were getting realised at the end of the season. Also he was still playing garbutt who was about 24.

2) regarding salaries and shop window, why is Charsley still here and playing, even though he has been realised. Apparently he’s been offered a short term deal. Not sure how true that is.
But now Ryan Astley who was playing last season for the 23’s and is seen as a top prospect, finds himself on the bench.

 

[BornBlue76]

We need to be tougher... players that haven’t got loans and have no future at Everton should be released and let go to find their own way. We can’t babysit what is at the age of 20 or 21.. a young man.. no longer a boy.

If they are under contract we are stuck with them, but then their needs to be clear guidelines about how much game time they get.

We are doing a disservice to the next gen.

 

[catcherintherye]

A couple of points
1) brands wasn’t at Everton in the 17/18 season and at the end of that year with nothing to play for the under 23 could probably finish 5th at best, he continued to play hennen & grant, who both were getting realised at the end of the season. Also he was still playing garbutt who was about 24.

2) regarding salaries and shop window, why is Charsley still here and playing, even though he has been realised. Apparently he’s been offered a short term deal. Not sure how true that is.
But now Ryan Astley who was playing last season for the 23’s and is seen as a top prospect, finds himself on the bench.

Both of those are good points. As regards Charsley I can’t make a lot of sense of it. I remember him being released. I can only assume they are either rolling his contract, or he may be staying on on a minimal/no contract to help his prospects? There is a balance of course, between doing what is best for the clubs, and helping lads who have provided us good service. It feels like we are doing Charsley a bit of a favour. As I mentioned above, personally I think as a club we have to be more ruthless in such situations and players ought to be moved on.

There is more of a general theme here too. Under Moyes we were pretty cut throat. He would identify any players he wanted for the first team and in truth the rest were moved on at 18/19. Under Martinez and in conjunction with Unsworth there was definitely a move towards saying keep young players longer and they will make the break. That’s proven to be completely untrue and we have probably wasted time on a few lads careers. I think about someone like Garbutt, and how he must wish he would have moved to Bournemouth when he had the opportunity.

What is quite clear, is once you turn 20, your marketability to lower league sides begins to dwindle as a prospect. My own view, with all young players would be, either be part of a first team squad, or if you are not look to move on to somewhere you are quite quickly. I wouldn’t be going for endless loans to find myself scratching around at 22.

As for the initial point, yes it’s fair Unsworth did do that. However I don’t think external pressures to give certain players game time emerged with Brands. It’s likely that the previous DOF and others who pay salaries will put pressure on the reserve coach to get higher earners in the “shop window” of reserves football. The club got 4 million quid for Browning from this approach. Whatever we think about development, getting (relatively) big earners off the books will still be seen as a priority over playing a younger player.

The first point kind of covers the 2nd though. To me we have been too indecisive over players, given certain young players quite big contracts and then watch them fall out of favour and prove difficult to replace.

 

[catcherintherye]

Well Charsley was definitely on the “Released” list last July, ironically so was Joe Hilton who he played against last night. I sense a definite change is occurring, which I assume but don’t know is Brands influence. It feels like we’ve moved more players on than previous years. Charsley and Hilton are examples of that , and with Virginia being loaned it’s left us with only u18s goalkeepers at U23s level . Odd. Only 5 Scholars from the 2017 intake out of 12 players moved up with some players like Michael Collins, Elliot Richards looking good at one time and no new players have been brought in . It’s like we’re having a pause and clear out at U23s as well as reducing the 1st team squad.
For me loans serve a purpose in giving needed game time in their development but they depend on the player, they can’t turn an average player into a great player , some thrive and progress others don’t . And of course our three English players on the pitch on Sunday all benefitted from loan spells earlier in their career. You touched upon nobody replacing Joe Royle earlier , maybe that’s something that needs addressing too.

There has certainly been a change in approach and I think it is a welcome one. There has been far too much of keeping ordinary players in and around the club.

I agree on loans and if a good loan can be found that is better than playing in the 23’s. However I think there are a shortage of opportunities for these sort of loans hence why lots of players remain with the under 23’s. Another Joe Royle figure may help, but in honesty, we still struggled to loan players out under Royle.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I disagree about the last bit. So Gordon wasn’t good enough at the back end of last season? When sambou was playing, even though he was leaving. Ryan Astley played RB the 2nd half of last season, but now is stuck on the bench, when he’s considered one of our best talents, how is that helping him.

The season before, with nothing to play for, David hennen, Luke Garbutt and Connor grant. All in their 20’s playing every week, while younger players and the future of the club sitting on the bench.

I couldn’t careless where we finish this season, just want to see our best talents getting games. Look at the 3 youngster doing well at Chelsea all been on loan a few times. Ok they may be better players which is a fair argument, but why isn’t feeney on loan, been part of the under 23’s for 3/4 years and looks like he hasn’t kicked on. Not been on loan once. Gibson & Gordon need to go in January before it’s to late for them.

Don’t know how true this is, but seen a few rumours about Brands walking out early of under 23 games, because of, at times the dour negative football and older players getting the nod. How easy would it be for brands to get rid of unsworth considering his long history with Everton and probably very close to Kenwright and Barrett baxendale.

Brands needs to have full control over football matters. Mosh owns this club, not Kenwright or DBB.

Unsworth has to be told to follow club procedures or he walks. Simple.

He hasn't always been like this. When he first took over from Stubbs he had Davies, Kenny, Ledson, Dowell, Evans, Walsh, Connolly and Williams all playing regularly for the U21s at 16/17 years of age and they played some decent football. So I'm not against Unsworth staying in charge provided he changes his strategy. It has to get back to the days when it was all about player development.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Maybe If Brands tried to get Unsworth out it would be like banging his head against a brick wall if Unsworth is close to Kenwright and Mrs. Baxindale, Imthink Brands is much more valuable to the club than Unsy.

Let's put it this way. If Brands walked because he couldn't get his own way in Unsworth towing the party line, then the club has deep rooted issues.