How about compare our academy to other English academies for it to be more relevant. Only Chelsea this season are bringing lots through and that's only because they had no real choice.
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How about compare our academy to other English academies for it to be more relevant. Only Chelsea this season are bringing lots through and that's only because they had no real choice.
I thought it relevant as it's a global business these days. A lot of the youngsters coming through at Dortmund are not German. We can't really compete with the Chelsea's and City's because they have so much more money than we do, so we have to do things differently. That's kinda the situation Dortmund find themselves in in relation to Bayern. We have a small senior squad and very little wriggle room to buy players in due to FFP, yet haven't given any youth players a chance in the first team this season (or last).
You can dress it up how you like, but the Academy has over 60 full-time staff and probably costs upwards of £10 million per year, and it's hard to see how we get a return on it at the moment.
Not disagreeing with that part my point was merely comparing bringing through players in the PL compared to the Bundesliga isn't really fair. If a league such as this has barely any academy prospects come through from any team and the German league has lots coming through every team then you know it's a league/nation not necessarily a club problem.
Sancho going from Man City academy to Dortmund for mins being a main example in that.
https://www.[Publication is blackli...n-in-producing-professional-footballers-13528 is quite an interesting piece from a few years ago.
From 2000-2018, just 5 players have come through our academy and made more than 50 starts for the club (6 if you include Rooney). I'd say 50 appearances is a pretty low bar to set, seeing as that would include the likes of Anichebe, who didn't exactly set the world alight, and you could argue neither Osman or Hibbert would be the kind of player who would help us progress right now. So 1 player every 3 years made a reasonable contribution to the first team, at a time when we were massively strapped for cash and gave kids plenty of opportunities, and 3 players (Rooney, Rodwell and Barkley) who were good enough to garner attention from teams above us.
What's more, in that period, the Academy generated around £50 million in transfer fees, with the vast majority of that the Rooney fee. Strip out the Rodwell fee and the academy generated about £7 million in transfer fees. Granted, since the article was published we got a little bit for Barkely, but we're not talking huge sums.
That's pretty crap.
Like I say, compare it to other English academies not abroad.
By all means, if there is similar data from other clubs...
Should add some more weight to my point:
Why the Bundesliga is the best league for young players
Barely a season goes by in the Bundesliga without the next fresh-faced teen taking the senior stage by storm - bundesliga.com takes a closer look at why.
www.bundesliga.com
Breaking the grass ceiling: why England's frustrated youngsters are heading to the Bundesliga
Bennetts is just the latest: how has the Bundesliga become the go-to league for English youngsters?
www.bundesliga.com
Ring master
Player Valuation: £90m
Billy Dean
Player Valuation: £70m
Germany/Bundesliga is a much better climate for younger players to grow in. Less financial pressure etc, and often teams are forced to develop youngsters because they don't have the money to splash around. Probably most importantly there's a much more patient culture towards young players here. They don't get hyped up by the media after one good performance, mistakes are expected and tolerated etc. A good example of the difference is the comments on Kenny posted in the loan thread from a Schalke forum, contrasted with the rabid comments on our young players in this forum.
Ring master
Player Valuation: £90m
3rd placed Everton u18s 9 points off top with 2 games in hand are back in action away to Derby tomorrow with an 11.30am ko - Derby have lost there last 3 home games with 2 of them been in the league 3-1/5-1 with Everton winning the last 4 league games v Derby with 2 of them at Derby both 2-1,if Everton can win they then play the bottom team who have lost every game next week with the top 2 playing each other so could close the gap-Derby are not showing it but have not showed any of there league u18s games this season either
Meanwhile the Everton u23s are at Goodison Mondy night this time also playing Derby u23s - Derby having been drawing quite a few games of late 2-2-They have played out three 2-2 games and a 3-3 game with one win in 7 for them-Everton will have one more u23s game at Goodsion this season which is last day home to Brighton, the U23s Derby has changed days but is still down to be at southport the day before the 1st team derby but the Game is Live on LFCTV
Meanwhile the Everton u23s are at Goodison Mondy night this time also playing Derby u23s - Derby having been drawing quite a few games of late 2-2-They have played out three 2-2 games and a 3-3 game with one win in 7 for them-Everton will have one more u23s game at Goodsion this season which is last day home to Brighton, the U23s Derby has changed days but is still down to be at southport the day before the 1st team derby but the Game is Live on LFCTV
Philw
Player Valuation: £50m
Read that article a few days ago. It's important to note imo, as Billy alluded to, that the article mentions when Dortmund were really struggling a few years ago under Klopp and the club/fans were happy to keep faith with the youth players. Their 'success' is also based on a large part bringing in the likes of Sancho and Haaland. These are not academy players that they've brought through, and not players who are going to stay at the club for more than 2-3 seasons. It's similar to us getting in Stones/Holgate, but a slightly different model (a variation of Chelsea's), as noted in an easier environment and (resultantly) you could say with more success.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
I shared the Dortmund article on twitter the other day, I thought it was also very interesting. I do understand the discussion about it and in truth both sides of the debate are correct. There are a number of objective factors that make it easier for European clubs to run successful academy teams, but also that as a club we should be using the likes of Dortmund (in truth there are about half a dozen German teas, Lille, Monaco, Sociedad, Bilbao) etc as models.
There seems to be a coherency and an aggression in terms of what they are trying to do which I like at Dortmund. It is an ethos that is built across the club. They accept losing top players but put a lot back into the system. That makes a lot of sense to me.
I think we need to be much bolder in terms of signing young players. I know we have an academy ban, but when thats lifted I'd like to see us be bolder and more aggressive. I mentioned Sancho when he left City being the perfect sort of signing we ought to have made. Brewster from Liverpool dithered over his contract, he'd have been another really smart signing. Each summer I do think we need to try and pick off some of the better talents at top teams academies who won't get game time.
In general we have a good record of buying younger players who have played first team football. That has been really fruitful for us, Holgate, Stones, Calvert Lewin, Lookman etc, hopefully Braithwaite is the next. This should eb continued.
It has been reported Brands is heavily scouting the French youth leagues. We seemed to try for South American younger players too (Sosa was close by all accounts) and we wanted a young Italian left back. I do think as things move forward, and we begin to become more stable and hopefully in Europe we can start to add more of these types of signings each summer and can supplement the local talent pool (which we do need to get a bit better at).
The culture needs to be implemented throughout the club though. In fairness to Brands, he said from moment one he wanted to build the team around Lookman, Calvert Lewin and Richarlinson. Lookman was immature and lost that sport but he was right on the other 2. We haven't bought another 2 players and they have flourished. It would be handy if a similar approach would allow Lewis Gibson to come into the squad as a 4th choice next season.
Walsh actually had a bit of a go at replicating this. You look at Gibson, Lookman, Adeniran, Bowler, Markelo, Calvert Lewin, Vlasic , Onyekuru and Sandro. Not all of them have been a success but there was a big effort to recruit younger players. We have to have the structure right above that, but we are getting there.
There seems to be a coherency and an aggression in terms of what they are trying to do which I like at Dortmund. It is an ethos that is built across the club. They accept losing top players but put a lot back into the system. That makes a lot of sense to me.
I think we need to be much bolder in terms of signing young players. I know we have an academy ban, but when thats lifted I'd like to see us be bolder and more aggressive. I mentioned Sancho when he left City being the perfect sort of signing we ought to have made. Brewster from Liverpool dithered over his contract, he'd have been another really smart signing. Each summer I do think we need to try and pick off some of the better talents at top teams academies who won't get game time.
In general we have a good record of buying younger players who have played first team football. That has been really fruitful for us, Holgate, Stones, Calvert Lewin, Lookman etc, hopefully Braithwaite is the next. This should eb continued.
It has been reported Brands is heavily scouting the French youth leagues. We seemed to try for South American younger players too (Sosa was close by all accounts) and we wanted a young Italian left back. I do think as things move forward, and we begin to become more stable and hopefully in Europe we can start to add more of these types of signings each summer and can supplement the local talent pool (which we do need to get a bit better at).
The culture needs to be implemented throughout the club though. In fairness to Brands, he said from moment one he wanted to build the team around Lookman, Calvert Lewin and Richarlinson. Lookman was immature and lost that sport but he was right on the other 2. We haven't bought another 2 players and they have flourished. It would be handy if a similar approach would allow Lewis Gibson to come into the squad as a 4th choice next season.
Walsh actually had a bit of a go at replicating this. You look at Gibson, Lookman, Adeniran, Bowler, Markelo, Calvert Lewin, Vlasic , Onyekuru and Sandro. Not all of them have been a success but there was a big effort to recruit younger players. We have to have the structure right above that, but we are getting there.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
What Dortmund seem to do, and in truth most German teams seem to do is have a relatively simple message re-enforced consistently by the club. That way it's easy for the fans to get behind it and there's not the same panic and frustration when it happens (by it I mean selling a top player like Jadon Sancho).
I think we could learn from that. Brands has communicated quite well, but we probably need to be more clear. Hopefully with people seeing the improvement of Richarlinson, Calvert- Lewin and Holgate (as well as Kenny on loan) the message will start to sink in here as well.
Ring master
Player Valuation: £90m
Everton u18s team to play at Derby u18s
Leban, Hosie, Jonathan Anderson, Lowey, Dylan Thompson, McAllister, Hagan, Higgins, Hughes, Dobbin, Cannon
Subs McIntyre, Butterfield, Kouyate, Kristensen, Whitaker
Leban, Hosie, Jonathan Anderson, Lowey, Dylan Thompson, McAllister, Hagan, Higgins, Hughes, Dobbin, Cannon
Subs McIntyre, Butterfield, Kouyate, Kristensen, Whitaker
Ring master
Player Valuation: £90m
1-0 Everton u18s -Cannon on 13mins-his 1st league goal since we beat newcastle mid december
Derby make it 1-1 on 17mins from a pen
Derby make it 1-1 on 17mins from a pen