BornBlue76
Player Valuation: £35m
Seen Garcia couple times now coming on and always makes a difference.. as you say seems to have something about him... one to watch
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I thought that about Dobbin, he looks more powerful now. About 15 months ago , when asked, I described him as “ mid way between Simms and Gordon in build” . It was really meant to be descriptive in that he wasn’t skinny but he wasn’t built like a big striker. We didn’t see enough of him today to build on what we already know , which is that he too is an exciting prospect . I’m sure I saw him jumping about in the 2nd goal celebrations , so hopefully he’s back at u18 and 23s soon.
Fantastic win today, was in work so was just watching little updates on here when I could.
....sorry, I don’t know if it’s the same bloke. Tait is a Geordie, from memory he met a Liverpool girl when he was at Everton & eventually they got married. He played for numerous clubs in the lower leagues, including Bristol Rovers @roydo.
roydo
in memoriam - 1965-2024
A really really faint ring of a bell with the name, but thats all.
messymascot
Player Valuation: £35m
It's a shame Onyango and Kouyate are injured or we would be even stronger. Hopefully Dobbins injury is only minor. Maybe have Welch and Price available as well.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
I thought exactly the same looking at him actually, he looked to me a bit like Courtney Duffus who was quite a powerful, big striker for us who ultimately lacked quality but physically was a decent specimen. I see Duffus has grown to be 188cm now, and Dobbin looks about 178 cm ish to me now, I wonder if he will grow to being perhaps 183/4.
I remmeber when he first broke into the 18's as a 16 year oldand he was tiny but very skillful. He's probably grown 7-8 cm in that time but really filled out. Anther 5-6 Cm and continuing to develop will go a long way.
In a lot of ways he was almost a precursor to a lot ofnthe talented younger players we had in that team. The first into the 18's etc. Hopefully he can get fit. I see him at a similar level to a Gordon, but different abilities. Certainly one to watch.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
Warning longer post.
I really enjoyed the match. I noted that 8 of our 11 players had had under 23's experience, which is obviously a positive, and a change from what had gone before, and I think helped them in the game. Even when Chelsea scored, and you worried we might collapse a bit, the slightly more mature mentality of game management kicked in. I actually thought we were good value for the win. We had a stone wall penalty denied and had a marginal offside ruled out. It could have easily been 4-1. We also missed 1 or 2 guilt edge chances (thinking Lewis Dobbin) so even though Chelsea had a lot of the ball, we had the better chances. It looks much less of a smash and grab than the City win.
I think this group should now be talked about as at least as good as the Davies/Kenny age group. I'll make a case for it being better soon, but it's at least as strong as we have had in 6 or 7 years. That age group had a lot of buzz about it, it was actually 2 year groups that were very strong. You saw the likes of Ledson and Kenny playing (and captaining) England with Joe Williams really well thought of with the older of the 2 years. The year below was the more talented though, with Davies, Walsh, Connolly, Dowell, Anthony Robinson all well thought of. There is similar at play here, the current 17's are a really strong group, but the 16's are viewed just as strongly in footballing circles(and the 15's have some strong players too).
Of the Davies group, only really Tom has come through. I have been more cautious with other age groups, including this one as a result. My view was always if that year group didnt herald us lots of first team players, it's hard for any age group too. However it is worth stating that the instability that came for that age group really didn't do them any good. As the older age group were turning 18 ready to be pushed through Moshiri arrives and promises massive spend, the manager goes, the way we recruit changes, a new DOF comes in and we splurge money on lots of players. We all know what followed, and we have 2-3 years of enormous instability where managers and DOF's are gone through like confetti, and those lads just get lost a bit.
I saw an interview with Ryan Ledson, where he intimates once Martinez went he was kind of done. He played in a youth tournament for England one summer, then got injured and just never got a chance to show Koeman what he could do, and Koeman wasn't interested. It was like a perfect storm really, and in honesty I don't think there wasany real thought give to the younger players as priorities changed quickly. I look at Davies now, but also Kenny who has done well at PL/Bundesliga level, Dowell who's excelling in the championship, Ledson and Williams have done likewise and Williams has made a good impression in the PL and think we could have potentially had 6 or 7 lads in the 1st team, had it all fallen a different way. It's fine margins.
So anyway back to the modern day, that team won the youth league but didn't get beyond the 5th round in the Youth Cup. To knock Chelsea and City out, away from home is as signfinicant a step as winning the thing, and you could argue is more significant. You can count on one hand the number of teams who have beaten either over the last decade, never mind both in a single year. In the last 6 years Manchester City have been to 5 finals and won it last year. In the last decade Chelsea have won it 7 times and got to 9 finals. In that time frame, Liverpool and Arsenal have both got to a final once. The level of domination those two clubs hae had is astonishing.
To me, it's our best performance since we got to the final in 2002 (the Rooney year) where in honesty Rooney carried quite an ordinary team all the way. You would have to go back to the late 90's when we won the competition to see a similar crop. The cavaets are now, that the club is in a far stronger position, the league is better and it's much harder to break through but thats the best comparison.If it won the competition I would say this team would be even better than the 90's team, given who we have knocked out.
In terms of the specifics of the game (and I appreciate I have gone on a lot so will try to keep it as short as possible) Small really shines out. He looks much stronger than most of the lads out there, and for 16 he's very impressive. He actually put 2 or 3 wonderful crosses in which is not something I've seen in his game, and is a massive plus. That quality, allied to the power and speed will take him a long way.
I'll pick out 2 others though who are less well known. Young Campbell at the back I've mentioned before but I like him. Like Small he has a very powerful build, looks about 6 ft but is only 16 and still growing. If he was born a month later he would be an under 16 and you always have to factor that in. I though he read the game well, made good decisions, left footed and could still have a fair bit of growing to come. So I like the look of him. Obviously Welch is with the 1st team, and it taller than Campbell, but Campbell looks more powerful to me.
The other to catch my eye was Whittaker. He has a fantastic leap on him, gets back into shape very well, but is also an intelligent player in the psses he makes. While he's not rapid, he's skillful and can get away from players. Reminds me a fair bit of Anthony Gordon when he played at that level. A very solid player, and one if he grows a bit could really push forward.
Anyway a really enjoyable watch.
I really enjoyed the match. I noted that 8 of our 11 players had had under 23's experience, which is obviously a positive, and a change from what had gone before, and I think helped them in the game. Even when Chelsea scored, and you worried we might collapse a bit, the slightly more mature mentality of game management kicked in. I actually thought we were good value for the win. We had a stone wall penalty denied and had a marginal offside ruled out. It could have easily been 4-1. We also missed 1 or 2 guilt edge chances (thinking Lewis Dobbin) so even though Chelsea had a lot of the ball, we had the better chances. It looks much less of a smash and grab than the City win.
I think this group should now be talked about as at least as good as the Davies/Kenny age group. I'll make a case for it being better soon, but it's at least as strong as we have had in 6 or 7 years. That age group had a lot of buzz about it, it was actually 2 year groups that were very strong. You saw the likes of Ledson and Kenny playing (and captaining) England with Joe Williams really well thought of with the older of the 2 years. The year below was the more talented though, with Davies, Walsh, Connolly, Dowell, Anthony Robinson all well thought of. There is similar at play here, the current 17's are a really strong group, but the 16's are viewed just as strongly in footballing circles(and the 15's have some strong players too).
Of the Davies group, only really Tom has come through. I have been more cautious with other age groups, including this one as a result. My view was always if that year group didnt herald us lots of first team players, it's hard for any age group too. However it is worth stating that the instability that came for that age group really didn't do them any good. As the older age group were turning 18 ready to be pushed through Moshiri arrives and promises massive spend, the manager goes, the way we recruit changes, a new DOF comes in and we splurge money on lots of players. We all know what followed, and we have 2-3 years of enormous instability where managers and DOF's are gone through like confetti, and those lads just get lost a bit.
I saw an interview with Ryan Ledson, where he intimates once Martinez went he was kind of done. He played in a youth tournament for England one summer, then got injured and just never got a chance to show Koeman what he could do, and Koeman wasn't interested. It was like a perfect storm really, and in honesty I don't think there wasany real thought give to the younger players as priorities changed quickly. I look at Davies now, but also Kenny who has done well at PL/Bundesliga level, Dowell who's excelling in the championship, Ledson and Williams have done likewise and Williams has made a good impression in the PL and think we could have potentially had 6 or 7 lads in the 1st team, had it all fallen a different way. It's fine margins.
So anyway back to the modern day, that team won the youth league but didn't get beyond the 5th round in the Youth Cup. To knock Chelsea and City out, away from home is as signfinicant a step as winning the thing, and you could argue is more significant. You can count on one hand the number of teams who have beaten either over the last decade, never mind both in a single year. In the last 6 years Manchester City have been to 5 finals and won it last year. In the last decade Chelsea have won it 7 times and got to 9 finals. In that time frame, Liverpool and Arsenal have both got to a final once. The level of domination those two clubs hae had is astonishing.
To me, it's our best performance since we got to the final in 2002 (the Rooney year) where in honesty Rooney carried quite an ordinary team all the way. You would have to go back to the late 90's when we won the competition to see a similar crop. The cavaets are now, that the club is in a far stronger position, the league is better and it's much harder to break through but thats the best comparison.If it won the competition I would say this team would be even better than the 90's team, given who we have knocked out.
In terms of the specifics of the game (and I appreciate I have gone on a lot so will try to keep it as short as possible) Small really shines out. He looks much stronger than most of the lads out there, and for 16 he's very impressive. He actually put 2 or 3 wonderful crosses in which is not something I've seen in his game, and is a massive plus. That quality, allied to the power and speed will take him a long way.
I'll pick out 2 others though who are less well known. Young Campbell at the back I've mentioned before but I like him. Like Small he has a very powerful build, looks about 6 ft but is only 16 and still growing. If he was born a month later he would be an under 16 and you always have to factor that in. I though he read the game well, made good decisions, left footed and could still have a fair bit of growing to come. So I like the look of him. Obviously Welch is with the 1st team, and it taller than Campbell, but Campbell looks more powerful to me.
The other to catch my eye was Whittaker. He has a fantastic leap on him, gets back into shape very well, but is also an intelligent player in the psses he makes. While he's not rapid, he's skillful and can get away from players. Reminds me a fair bit of Anthony Gordon when he played at that level. A very solid player, and one if he grows a bit could really push forward.
Anyway a really enjoyable watch.
Raino85
Player Valuation: £35m
The first thing i noticed watching bits of he game yesterday is how much the Chelsea lads were taller, faster, wider & stronger than our lot!
Are lads, had by far the better attitude and were probably technically better footballers which probably highlights how youth recruitment has been over the past 5-8 years.
Academy's are recruiting specimens, cyborg lads even. Some lads are being recruited without a hint of technical ability but as the PL now is mostly about pace, power and running around loads, academy's (Chelsea in particular) just go looking for the biggest strongest lads and teach them the football bits afterwards.
Obviously there are anomalies with the likes of Mason Mount & Phil Foden, who technically are 2 of the best in Europe at there age, and hopefully there is a sea change in this as i feel we have produced good footballers over the years but not necesarilly good athletes (which the PL is so obsessed in) you look at Walsh, Dowell, Gordon just off the top of my head, wheras you look at Barkley (who made it here) was a man mountain at 18, and you look at Calvert Lewin who again is shaped and built like an olympic god!
I felt alot of our side is in that same bracket of really good technically but maybe lacking that athletisism that gets you to the top, it will be why there is so much interest in Small from other clubs, they will see the raw attributes and not the ability (i think he is one of the less technically gifted players in that side).
As an old git in my 30s, i would love for it to turn that the more gifted footballers start coming through if we go through a style change in the league, but that is hopeful thinking, at the end of the day its a game about skill and ability, not about what you can create in a lab!
I think you’re being a bit unfair on Chelsea’s Academy there mate. Over the last 10 years they developed a strong grass roots base bringing in the best English players close to their catchment area, and certainly from the past they were picking youngsters on skill at an early age when you couldn’t see their size. And they had one of the smallest, most skillful players on the pitch . I’m sure around the later years they do look at physical size , bring in foreign players etc that changes their team a wee bit but for me they’ve been one of the most progressive Academies over the past decade, hence I’m absolutely delighted that we beat them !
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
I think it's a realy good point and I felt much the same. I mean some of that is that we didn't have the powerful players Kouyate, Welch and to a greater degree Onyango playing. But yes there is certainly a question about power.
Some of this is demographic too. I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, but certain minority groups who are migrating to the UK have a certain physical characteristics. It's not like evolution or anything like that, but there are certain traits about being bigger and stronger. Lots of academies will tilt recruitment to this area. The difficulties is, Liverpool and the surrounding area is a very white, native area (though it's changing) and that is sort of reflected in the teams we have.
I have said for some time I would like to see a shift towards gettingmore power and speed into our teams. It's what has impressed me about Onyango and Small and why both, in their own way are head of the cue. I like what we've done with both. Onyango is huge for his age. There is a picture of him playing for Engand under 17's and he towers over even the CB's. He could be any height,and while I think he will end up around 6 ft 4 he may even grow to big bigger than Yerry Mina and end uparound 6 ft6. Once you are getting to that sort of height, you don't have to be the best footballer in the world to be effective.
Small is very quick and powerful. Both have been pushed through. I think it's a good ploy. Particularly for ourselves. Yes I get the Foden story, but a Foden would probably struggle more in a team like ours who have less of the ball.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
He had a bad injury Garcia, but doesn't seem to have effected his pace at all. He is an unusual player, and I quite like unusual in a footballer, it tends to mean they have an ability that is quite hard to stop. He is quick and skillful and knows how to run the line well. As with all of them, you'd want to see them tested at a level higher, but speed and movement are traits that are hard to defend at any age group.
Raino85
Player Valuation: £35m
I wouldn't say i am being harsh, there is evidence of the more athletic lads struggling once they get to actual mens football, look at Solanke, Palmer & Izzy Brown....all big lads, towered over there opposition and won everything at youth level, they move up and they cant rely on there physicality as much and they struggle.
As i said before though, it is whats required in todays Premier League, physicality, athleticism & pace comes before skill and reading the game.
But what do i know, im just an arl arse who thinks everything that is new is rubbish
Simon Buttle
Player Valuation: £50m
We certainly seem to have some decent youngsters at the moment, there was an article the other day saying that Brands wants Carlo to watch/have a bit more involvement with the youngsters as he believes there is talent there that deserves a pathway to the first team.
Raino85
Player Valuation: £35m
Gordon Strachan said the same when it comes to Scotland i think also.
I dont think Scotland have produced a person over 5ft 4 since Big Dunc
He was saying along the lines of in terms of evolution and genes that naturally Serbians all look and are the size of Nemanja Vidic, and Scottish lads from Glasgow are all the size of Callum McGregor.
You just have to look at Frances world cup squad of 98 to see how genetics can shape a side.
To me though, i would prefer a player to be a footballer first, if they are an athlete...great, you can get both, but i dont like the idea of good technical footballers being by passed for lads who will just get touch, skill and reading of the game coached into them like a robot