roydo
in memoriam - 1965-2024
Unless they are a small part of a large group, like Phillip Greens lot that went pop, (and even then, they would be sold off as a going concern), and/or carried huge debt they couldnt service, cant see why.
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FFP RIP?
- Thread starter BNJ1878
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Unless they are a small part of a large group, like Phillip Greens lot that went pop, (and even then, they would be sold off as a going concern), and/or carried huge debt they couldnt service, cant see why.
Martin Alvito
Player Valuation: £50m
You do get it, your very first sentence let's us know that you get it.
They called it Financial Fair Play and what they ended up with was possibly one of the most unfair set of rules ever. It punished investment and ignored debt, which was a crazy thing to have done, Barcelona are basically on the verge of going bankrupt, the biggest club in the world with massive debt even with financial rules in place and not a word about it..
Barcelona on the verge of bankruptcy: €1,173m in debt, €730m in short-term - Football España
The financial figures at the heart of Barcelona news are increasingly alarming and a report in El Mundo has given more context to the numbers, claiming that the club are on the verge of bankruptcy. The club are €1,173m in debt, with €730m of that sum due in the short term while €266m is owed …www.google.com
It looks to me like what happened was that UEFA did not expect a cottage industry of third parties springing up that essentially loaned clubs their outgoing transfer payment amounts in return for repayment in installments.
The bet by clubs and investors appears to have been that consistent year-over-year increases in club revenues meant that they were better off grabbing up all the marketable assets that they could, as even if they did not develop further they would generally be worth more in the future due to clubs' increased capacity to pay for them.
Add in Barca's borrowing for an overdue refurbishing of the Camp Nou (and the FFP exception for stadium investment, which in turn would be expected to increase revenues and improve their FFP position) and you have a toxic brew.
The big problem with the stadium exception was that the clubs that were already big could expect a much greater return on investment than smaller clubs could - and now it's no surprise that the clubs that are caught out are by and large the big clubs with recent big stadium projects intended to chase the revenue bump for FFP purposes.
PaulPowersTash
Player Valuation: £15m
It's the old adage 'cash is king'.
A business can be highly profitable on paper or in the accounts but still not viable.
However, it's down to cash flow. If the business can't pay suppliers or wages due
to the fact it's not collected its payments from its customers then it
will cease to trade unless the bank (or someone else) extends a line of credit (at a price) to them.
If a big customer has gone bust on them and defaulted on the money owed and they can't get
that line of credit then it's game over. The business may well be sold off as a going concern but
usually at a fraction of its real value. HMRC is always first in line for any money that the receivers bring in
(after the receivers take their cut of course) then usually something like a measely £0.10p in the pound to the creditors
who are owed money. I have seen receivers sell off some seriously valuable assets for pennies. They really don't care
as long as they get their fees and complete the necessary. The creditors of Phillip Green got next to nothing so the knock
on effect repeats like dominoes coming down.
barneygumble
Player Valuation: £60m
I think you’ve got to look at that period and think you’re seeing just a slither of the dodgy dealings UEFA/FIFA and the entire football organisation were doing and you’d be naive to think FFP wasn’t intercepted midway through to suit the hierarchy.
If they can fix a process for a World Cup to be awarded to Country who doesn’t meet any of the specifics (stadia, season, human rights), then they can definitely fiddle the books to favour the lessers.
FFP was, as a couple on here have mentioned, huge in concept, would have stopped clubs overspending and going bang, but in the end, it was implemented to look after number one.
It was acceptable to see some of the larger teams tail off like Arsenal, United, Milan, Inter etc... but they’ve got a market to please and having some of their big hitters not doing well because of their own policies was never gonna fly.
Im shocked it’s taken this long, being honest.
PaulPowersTash
Player Valuation: £15m
It's pretty much a club and it's the big boys who run it.
It's COVID that has finally brought it to its knees.
I'm an old cynic I don't think it will change.
If they go for this European Super League idea (and I think they will)
then football as we know is pretty much finished. Well it will be for me at least.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
Yes I mean I always felt FFP ended up doing neither thing. It wasn't strong enough to actually cause greater fairness in the game, nor was it weak enough to allow for social mobility. Not only did it get caught in a half way house, it got caught in a half way house that was confusing, ran contrary to the basic principles of European law and was increasingly seen as favouring a section of clubs narrow interests. I mean they honestly couldn't have come up with a worse set of rules had they tried. To have managed to achieve all of the above, is remarkable. Normally you sacrfice social mobility, or greater fairness, they managed to sacrifice both.
I remember saying in the lead up to the court case, they just need to back down. The usual gloating suspects (essentially Kopites) with their inane and clueless understanding of law and precadent seemed to place the very high emphasis on what was essentially UEFA's kangaroo court. It was obvious as soon as it was heard in an impartial court, anyone with any legal background would just throw it out. The problem is, UEFA is full of yes men, who just confirm the group think.
City were waiting for that moment too. At no point did City ever look in any way rattled. And why would they? They knew they were compliant with European law. Even if UEFA would have fluked it at the CAS they'd have escalated it to the enxt level and won.
UEFA to me were like a poker player, trying to bluff a hand, against an opponent who knew they had the nut hand. City were waiting and catching them. The sensible play was never to recklessly gamble the entire FFP reputation in such away, but as you say, to bring City into the fold. The problem is, the propaganda just got too much. Some people genuinely started to believe notions that spending money is akin to "financial doping" or that suits in ivory towers can dictate market value as a point of fact, better than what an actual market can dictate it's own value. They started getting wound up, and for a lot of the teams opposing City, they didn't want to lose face.
I think UEFA are learning slowly that wasa bad move. Those same clubs have thanked them by trying to set up a rival comp. Thats the thanks they have got for risking their reputation and essentially having their backsides handed to them in a humiliating way.
As for the final point, I never got the issue with debt. Companies, particularly growth companies regularly run on debt in the early phases. Amazon, Apple, Tesla etc all ran on debt before they became successful. Imagine if some watchdog would have tried to shut Amazon down in 2008 or whatever before they hit the big time, and thought he knew better than Jeff Bezos about how to grow a company because they turnover figure shouldn't allow that much borrowing. It would just never happen. And it should never be allowed to happen. You can't grow and innovate if you're unwilling to speculate and gamble a bit.
A perfectly normal set of behaviours in the business world have been bordwer criminalised by football's authorities, by a bunch of bureacrat hacks who think they know more about business than people who have made tens of billions in business. It's utterly tragic.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
The thing with this European super league, is it crops up every time there's a negotiation about either places in the CL or a discussion about the PL's future. We were told in October we would see firm plans by the end of the month and clubs committing to it.
I don't think anybody has committed to it, and aside from United and Liverpool wit their American owners, I don't think anyone else in this country has publicly said they want in on it. FIFA and UEFA have said it's not sanctioned (which would likely mean any players/clubs partaking will not be eligible for world cups, or probably the PL).
However in life, when people want to leave and go, they generally just go. The one's who keep telling you they want to go unless you do x,y and z are generally full of **** and are trying to exert influence to maximuse their position. In my role I tend to just ignore it, and 99/100 they never follow through.
There is a multitude of reasons why it wouldn't work, particularly at the moment, but the fact they don't keep to any dates is very telling.
Seathestars
Player Valuation: £60m
Carlo bounces in to uncle Uzi’s office, slaps his shopping list on the desk, and leaves.
Uncle Uzi takes a long drag on his cigar, picks up his phone while looking at the list, ‘Hello Comrade Vladimir, I want 2 players for my forward line, I need pressure putting on PSG and Dortmund.
‘No problem Alisher, consider it done’
Uncle Uzi takes a long drag on his cigar, picks up his phone while looking at the list, ‘Hello Comrade Vladimir, I want 2 players for my forward line, I need pressure putting on PSG and Dortmund.
‘No problem Alisher, consider it done’
The binman chronicles
Player Valuation: £80m
You lot are like a pack of wolves. What is more fair play than having baked in advantage if you just happen to be commercially successful at that moment when it came into force.
It's the definition of a level playing field for all and you monsters can't see it.
It's the definition of a level playing field for all and you monsters can't see it.
Saint Domingo
Player Valuation: £90m
The fundamental problem at the core of the super league that the big clubs don’t want to admit is that they’re not very interesting to watch. No one wants to see AC Milan Manchester United every week. It was bad enough seeing Arsenal get battered by Barcelona and Bayern every year in the CL. The group phases of the champions league are boring. There’s no rivalries, there’d be no underdog successes, no relegation, no Sam Allardyces, no Grant Holts. The rich tapestry of league football in England is what draws people in and is the goose that has laid the golden egg. There is just no market for Liverpool v Real Madrid four times a season every season with nothing riding on it. It’s boring, and they all know it which is what annoys them so much. They’d break away and the product would immediately fail and if anything just boost interest in all the leagues they left behind that would immediately become more competitive.
It’s a cache 22 for the big clubs that they’ll never break out of. They want more money and less competition, but the only way to make more money is for more people to be interested, and people only like competitive sport. They just can’t break out of this bind and it continues to annoy them. The best way to freshen up the CL would be if FFP was relaxed and more teams gatecrashed it, if Everton, Villarreal, Fiorentina, Wolfsburg etc. were in it some years rather than the same tired old teams. They’re terrified to allow it though even though it’s probably the only thing that will save a competition that is frankly even less exciting than the league cup until the quarter final stages.
too many long posts recently, is it on or off lads?
Yeah, who has the time?
Off in it's current form. Nobody knows if the new version will be better or not.
Game is screwed.
Yarrgh
Player Valuation: £70m
Let me answer that in a couple of dozen paragraphs for brevity's sake.
Actually some of those long posts are fairly good assessments of the situation.
Again....
Tipp blue
If I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong.
What Financial Fair Play changes would mean for Everton and Moshiri
European football's governing body are reported to be considering major changes to Financial Fair Play
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