Holgate Racially Abused By Firmino - The Guardian

[davek]

The process is basically labelling a professional athlete a cheat based on subjective rather than objective evidence. This isn't like doping tests.

To me, it's defamation. Similarly, I think Rodriguez is right to seek legal advice over being called a racist on very flimsy grounds and, yes, if Firmino is charged he would be right to do it too. Because being called a cheat or a racist is a very serious allegation to make and you should have very concrete grounds to do so - the processes the FA have are far from concrete.

Erm, this is a case looking into verbal abuse. Quite besides the racism there was also a disgusting attack on Holgate that questioned his mother';s integrity by calling him a son of a whore...right under the refs nose, and the camera's CLEARLY picked that up. And that is the LEAST Firmino has done.

In short: defamation my arse.

 

[bluestevon]

My own feelings are that the FÃ have given them the nod that nothing will happen to Firminho anytime soon if at all. Why loan out Sturridge and not replace him when you are still in the CL and top 4 if you think your only striker is about to get a long ban?

My opinion, he wouldn't play Sturridge there anyway.

He'd go salah up front with lallana wider

Klopp doesn't trust any striker he has. Firminho all said and done isn't even one.

 

[Tubey]

Erm, this is a case looking into verbal abuse. Quite besides the racism there was also a disgusting attack on Holgate that questioned his mother';s integrity by calling him a son of a whore...right under the refs nose, and the camera's CLEARLY picked that up. And that is the LEAST Firmino has done.

In short: defamation my arse.

That's an entirely different issue.

Firmino is being investigated on same grounds as Rodriguez, who was charged with, to quote, "abusive and/or insulting words which included a reference to ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race".

Unless they can prove that objectively, that's defamation to me, and if I were Rodriguez (or Firmino if charged), I'd take them to court for it.

Don't get me wrong; I'm convinced Firmino did say what he is alleged to have said, but the fact is there's no way to objectively prove it.

 

[davek]

That's an entirely different issue.

Firmino is being investigated on same grounds as Rodriguez, who was charged with, to quote, "abusive and/or insulting words which included a reference to ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race".

Unless they can prove that objectively, that's defamation to me, and if I were Rodriguez (or Firmino if charged), I'd take them to court for it.

Don't get me wrong; I'm convinced Firmino did say what he is alleged to have said, but the fact is there's no way to objectively prove it.

I think you know the words which included pretty much runs a coach and horses through your argument...and besides that you seems to think that all FA charges are worded the same! Players have been banned before for abusive and insulting language. As said, that's quite besides the probability of Firmino racially abusing Holgate too.

 

[Tubey]

I think you know the words which included pretty much runs a coach and horses through your argument...and besides that you seems to think that all FA charges are worded the same! Players have been banned before for abusive and insulting language. As said, that's quite besides the probability of Firmino racially abusing Holgate too.

How does it? It actually reinforces what I'm saying - for the FA to specifically state that racism is part of the charge, then that, if not provable, is defamation of character.

'Abusive and/or insulting words' or indeed actions are much more easily proven and Rodriguez/Firmino are bang to rights on that and that should be the bare minimum charge for both here. But specifying racism is where things get on dodgy ground.

 

[Lanolin]

I think you know the words which included pretty much runs a coach and horses through your argument...and besides that you seems to think that all FA charges are worded the same! Players have been banned before for abusive and insulting language. As said, that's quite besides the probability of Firmino racially abusing Holgate too.

I think you're misunderstanding the charge Dave. The wording effectively means 'using a racist term to either abuse or insult' not 'being insulting or abusive, and possibly also racist'. It's the racism he's being charged with, not the abuse.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I think you're misunderstanding the charge Dave. The wording effectively means 'using a racist term to either abuse or insult' not 'being insulting or abusive, and possibly also racist'. It's the racism he's being charged with, not the abuse.

Is it? Nothing out of the FA, for all we know there may not even be an open case. They may have put the refs report straight into the shredder.

 

[Steve0]

IF there's a camera angle showing he didn't say anything then show it.
IF there's no camera angle proving anything one way or another come out say evidence is inconclusive so case has to be dropped.
IF Holgate wanted the issue to go away he'd have come out and said so.

Which really only leaves the least palatable option. Unfortunately it looks like Liverpool FC have employed another racist. If i was Holgate I'd be looking to prosecute the PL for suppressing evidence.

 

[Saint Domingo]

There’ll be huge ramifications if he does end up being charged and he’s been scoring against teams down at the bottom but then wouldn’t be for some games coming up. Clubs at the bottom would not be happy if there’s a poor reason for the delay. How much evidence can there be to get through before coming to a decision?

 

[markde1]

The referee has obviously heard nothing - otherwise a charge would have been laid or the case dropped
There are no obvious camera angels or recordings - as above
Holgate is adamant he heard something that had racist overtones - he is standing by his word
Firmino is adamant he abused him in his native language but without racist overtones - he is standing by his word
Whatever other players have heard, their "evidence" has not been strong/consistent/secure/believed enough to move this forward.

How do the FA get out of the above? I imagine a lot of the time has spent trying to get the players to agree to disagree without leaving any space for re-opening of this by either party.

 

[davek]

I think you're misunderstanding the charge Dave. The wording effectively means 'using a racist term to either abuse or insult' not 'being insulting or abusive, and possibly also racist'. It's the racism he's being charged with, not the abuse.

No, I have it right. The FA statement on Rodriguez was that he used both abusive and racist language (and/or). The racism was one part of the charge, the other for insulting language abuse.

Call someone a son of a whore under the refs nose and in full view of the camera's (and all the pundits picked it up and commented on it), then you are going to be charged. And that is just for insulting language; he also (like Rodriguez, I believe) has another charge to answer on top of that.

 

[number4.]

No, I have it right. The FA statement on Rodriguez was that he used both abusive and racist language (and/or). The racism was one part of the charge, the other for insulting language abuse.

Call someone a son of a whore under the refs nose and in full view of the camera's (and all the pundits picked it up and commented on it), then you are going to be charged. And that is just for insulting language; he also (like Rodriguez, I believe) has another charge to answer on top of that.

The precedent of this would be impossible to manage. You would have to apply the same to anyone using the words "Pr*ck, MotherF8Cker, D8ck, Kn*b the list goes on) - every match would be trawled for footage by the fans of the team they play next week.

Ref put in his report that an allegation was made;

“The FA can confirm that referee Bobby Madley was made aware of an allegation during the Liverpool versus Everton game at Anfield last night and has subsequently reported this to The FA, which will now begin making enquiries into the matter.”

this is what the FA are/have investigated. Rightly or wrongly, they would be stupid to touch the "Son of a Wh*re"

 

[TheFinnFan]

Still nothing....

 

[Saint Domingo]

Still nothing....

Perhaps one of our razor sharp echo journalists can get on the case or even god forbid asks question at the press conferences, you know, actually do their jobs.

 

[TheFinnFan]

Perhaps one of our razor sharp echo journalists can get on the case or even god forbid asks question at the press conferences, you know, actually do their jobs.

Theyre are effing bellends