2017/18 Kieran Dowell

[Barnfred 55]

People are acting like a loan can somehow harm his development. Of course it can't. It's his first exposure to competitive first team football, he can only get better as a result of it, and we'll get a returning player who is that little bit more ready to step into our team.

I think a bad loan to the wrong club/manager can sometimes harm/delay a players development. You only have to look at the likes of Garbutt and Galloway for recent examples of this. However keeping a player with the first team squad and not giving him playing time could be equally as harmful. This looks like a good choice of club/manager so let's hope it works out well for him.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Those two statements that I've taken out are the root of why we're up to nearly 90 pages here . I'm 100% behind Dowell, was 50/50 on the loan deal , there's pros and cons, but it's happened and I now concentrate on watching highlights of him playing and reading comments from the Forest fans - he's actually made a good start. Too many people are still stuck with moaning about the loan and what an appalling league it is - the bits I've seen when watching Pennington play for Leeds and Forest playing have been quite good and probably more entertaining that Everton v Stoke. While this moaning about the loan continues so too will people continue taking the piss, and as I'm sure you know the best comments on Dowell's play will occur in attrotell's " Loan " thread particularly as it contains comments from people who actually bother to watch him live or in highlights.
As for Dowell, he'll do fine at Forest, he's 19 I can happily wait another season for him to fulfill his promise.

Spot on.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Its not just Dave tho.

"The bottom line is that he's probably the most skilful player to come through our academy since Rooney"

The above is pure undiluted tosh.

He looks a very talented boy, but youve just declared him better than Barkley, which is quite laughable, come back when the lad has played a few first team games for us, then we can maybe declare him better than Barkley, TomTom or even John Paul Kissock.

Couldn't disagree more. There's a difference between being more skilful and being a better player. Nowhere have I said he is a better player than Barkley or Davies for that matter. I'm a massive fan of both. Just because I believe he is more skilful doesn't mean he'll become a great, or even good footballer. We've seen loads of skilful players go by the wayside over the years and not just at Everton.

 

[Nymzee]

Couldn't disagree more. There's a difference between being more skilful and being a better player. Nowhere have I said he is a better player than Barkley or Davies for that matter. I'm a massive fan of both. Just because I believe he is more skilful doesn't mean he'll become a great, or even good footballer. We've seen loads of skilful players go by the wayside over the years and not just at Everton.

Why does being skilful matter then at all? McGeady and Bolasie were by far the most skilful players in the squad last year.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Because he asks for it by posting absolute drivel about the player, just because he has a titty lip with the manager, thus making himself susceptible to this kind of thing.

If you want to believe he knows everything about Dowell and how he plays and are happy to buy into his over the top description of the championship, then go for your life. Some of us aren't as gullible.

Hope this helps.

p.s we all want Dowell to do well and come back a better player, why are you even questioning that we all want that? Is it go with what Dave says or we will be cast as Dowell hating villains?

I wasn't mate or at least didn't mean to. I only said that we should all get behind him and hope he does well on loan. And that was aimed as much at those who are still complaining about him going on loan. I was however questioning why you felt the need to make the Ballon D'Or and mythical Messi references. I just didn't think it was fair to the lad. But Ok. I see now you were having a go at Davek

 

[Barnfred 55]

Why does being skilful matter then at all? McGeady and Bolasie were by far the most skilful players in the squad last year.

For the vast majority of footballers that make it as a professional I would say that it doesn't matter that much. If you look at our starting XI on Saturday for instance, I would say that only Rooney is what I would term a skilful player. Lookman is too and Bolasie as you say. If we get Gylfi I would class him in that bracket too plus Barkley if he stays. That's less than 20% of our squad so, for the rest, you could argue that being skilful in that sense doesn't matter.

The vast majority of skilful players either go by the wayside completely, like George Green, or end up playing bit part roles such as McGeady and Deulofeu. Invariably they are inconsistent, lack desire and are lazy. Sometimes they are absolute fruitcakes too and liable to go off the rails. But sometimes players match their skill with consistency and these are the ones that make it at the top level. Such as Hazard, Silva and De Bruyne.

Then you have the ones that are not only skilful and consistent, but also have the application and desire to become the best. They end up world class. There are very few truly world class players that don't fit into this "skilful" category and all of these will be keepers, defenders and goal scorers.

In the case of Dowell, in my opinion he is the most skilful player to come through our academy since Rooney and is capable of doing things on a football pitch that nobody else in our squad, other than possibly Rooney, can. But he doesn't do it consistently enough to warrant a place in the starting XI ahead of say Davies. He may never reach that consistency which would be sad but not wholly unexpected as few players of his ilk do.

 

[jceverton]

Its not just Dave tho.

"The bottom line is that he's probably the most skilful player to come through our academy since Rooney"

The above is pure undiluted tosh.

He looks a very talented boy, but youve just declared him better than Barkley, which is quite laughable, come back when the lad has played a few first team games for us, then we can maybe declare him better than Barkley, TomTom or even John Paul Kissock.

I genuinely don't think it is. I've been watching Everton's academy before Rooney came along and I think that comment is spot on.He is more skilful than Barkley, he's also got a better football brain. Whether he turns out to be a better player will depend on if he fulfils his potential. If he does then he'll go on to be a better player in my opinion.

 

[Duncan Disordely]

Seems like he's having a great game according to the Forest fans on twitter





I won't post loads so I don't ruin @atrottel loan thread update.

 

[jonnyboy316]

I genuinely don't think it is. I've been watching Everton's academy before Rooney came along and I think that comment is spot on.He is more skilful than Barkley, he's also got a better football brain. Whether he turns out to be a better player will depend on if he fulfils his potential. If he does then he'll go on to be a better player in my opinion.

Agree with this. No guarantees he can develop the all around game required to succeed at prem level but in terms of his ability to shoot and pass a football he looks very special. Reminds me a little of left footed Le Tissier

 

[jonnyboy316]

Missed a guilt edge chance but is again getting decent feedback from Forest fans for his performance. Looks like he will play regularly.

 

[tim cahill]

http://www.forestforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46133&page=4

It looks like he's standing out for them.

 

[catcherintherye]

Looks to be making the best of his loan, and Warbotton is generally a very good manager of loaned players. If he's playing every week and flourishing it will do him no harm.

Despite being very pro Dowell I can see both sides of the debate. Most young players won't make it with Everton irrespective of the manager. I don't really understand why Koeman put him in against Genk unless he thinks highly of him though. I don't think he was anywhere near bad enough to warrant being bombed out. I suspect Koeman wanted to keep him on the fringes, but a decent loan offer, from a big championship club with a manager who would play him regularly and give him a role to flourish may have made us reconsider.

As for the player, the reds have a similar talent with Woodburn who I was speaking to one about. They mentioned about Scholes, who Woodburn reminded him of (a young Scholes who played off the front). Rarely did Scholes excel as a striker at youth level, it was Fowler who did with his power and pace. Yet Scholes would have the better career. He only really broke though at around 20 though.

I think you see something similar with Dowell. If he goes on and bosses the championship, plays regularly and is given a free role it's hard to see the experience being bad for him. At the very least it may force Koeman's hand a bit, or if we are being blunt, mean that if we offload Dowell he will get a high calibre of club.

In my ideal world, he gets Forest promoted and comes back to play for Everton next season. However there are few fairy tales in football. Lets see, nice to see him get such praise though.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Missed a guilt edge chance but is again getting decent feedback from Forest fans for his performance. Looks like he will play regularly.

Looks to be making the best of his loan, and Warbotton is generally a very good manager of loaned players. If he's playing every week and flourishing it will do him no harm.

Despite being very pro Dowell I can see both sides of the debate. Most young players won't make it with Everton irrespective of the manager. I don't really understand why Koeman put him in against Genk unless he thinks highly of him though. I don't think he was anywhere near bad enough to warrant being bombed out. I suspect Koeman wanted to keep him on the fringes, but a decent loan offer, from a big championship club with a manager who would play him regularly and give him a role to flourish may have made us reconsider.

As for the player, the reds have a similar talent with Woodburn who I was speaking to one about. They mentioned about Scholes, who Woodburn reminded him of (a young Scholes who played off the front). Rarely did Scholes excel as a striker at youth level, it was Fowler who did with his power and pace. Yet Scholes would have the better career. He only really broke though at around 20 though.

I think you see something similar with Dowell. If he goes on and bosses the championship, plays regularly and is given a free role it's hard to see the experience being bad for him. At the very least it may force Koeman's hand a bit, or if we are being blunt, mean that if we offload Dowell he will get a high calibre of club.

In my ideal world, he gets Forest promoted and comes back to play for Everton next season. However there are few fairy tales in football. Lets see, nice to see him get such praise though.

Great to see him doing well. But it's early days in his loan so best not to get carried away. As we know he is liable to have the odd game where he does missing. Plus we really need Forest to be in the hunt for play off places or, at worst, mid table. If they get into a relegation battle Dowell may become a luxury they can't afford. Early signs are that they, and Kieran, will have a good season though so fingers crossed. Just going to have a look at the Forest forum now. Always enjoy seeing our young loanees getting praised.

 

[marchy]

Looks to be making the best of his loan, and Warbotton is generally a very good manager of loaned players. If he's playing every week and flourishing it will do him no harm.

Despite being very pro Dowell I can see both sides of the debate. Most young players won't make it with Everton irrespective of the manager. I don't really understand why Koeman put him in against Genk unless he thinks highly of him though. I don't think he was anywhere near bad enough to warrant being bombed out. I suspect Koeman wanted to keep him on the fringes, but a decent loan offer, from a big championship club with a manager who would play him regularly and give him a role to flourish may have made us reconsider.

As for the player, the reds have a similar talent with Woodburn who I was speaking to one about. They mentioned about Scholes, who Woodburn reminded him of (a young Scholes who played off the front). Rarely did Scholes excel as a striker at youth level, it was Fowler who did with his power and pace. Yet Scholes would have the better career. He only really broke though at around 20 though.

I think you see something similar with Dowell. If he goes on and bosses the championship, plays regularly and is given a free role it's hard to see the experience being bad for him. At the very least it may force Koeman's hand a bit, or if we are being blunt, mean that if we offload Dowell he will get a high calibre of club.

In my ideal world, he gets Forest promoted and comes back to play for Everton next season. However there are few fairy tales in football. Lets see, nice to see him get such praise though.

We seem to want to rush these kids into the first team. Players like Rooney and Tom Davies are the exception not the rule in that they are capable of playing top flight open age football as teenagers and not just coping but excelling. The loans that the likes of Dowell, Browning, Galloway and Williams have these season are perfect. Historically large clubs who have an expectation to be at the top table. Means they will experience pressure but at a slightly lower level which gives them time to adjust. The majority of our loaners this year are your players with time on their side, if they don't make the break through at Everton until 21, 22 or even 23 they could still have 10 plus years with us. No rush for these kids.

 

[Eggs]

http://www.forestforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46133&page=4

It looks like he's standing out for them.

..love that stuff, great insight.