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live earth?

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Thats how it appears others are to me, we banish saddam to the pits of hell and yet bush and blair have killed more for less reason.

I can see, why in a culture Iraq was in at the time of that gassing why the president would react like that, to send out a message, nobody try it again otherwise it won't only be you that dies it will be your family and your kids too.

What I'm saying is, I'm sure these kind of tactics aren't new and in a country like Iraq and in a region like the middle east (and lets face it, they are pretty dark ages in their crime and punishment outlook) I can see why it happened and why it was accepted.

If it was SOOOOO wrong, why did it take 20 odd years to do anything about it.
Didn't he buy the gas from us anyway? why sell nerve gas to Iraq??
 
why stop their, who produces the automatic weapons that find there way into the hands of children in africa?

military contracts, selling arms to other countries is a big part of britains economy - look how the investigation into BAE and the saudis was hushed up.

it all stinks, and it all comes back to greed.

saddam had a gold plated bathroom, greed remember. there are men in british prisons that were jailed for designing and supplying iraq with pieces of 'pipe' - these pieces of pipe were to be assembled into a 'super gun' - greed remember.
 
The investigation is still going on in south africa.

Yeh, I think most have come to the conclusion that this whole Iraq - Afghanistan thing was all about money.
 
Rob said:
The investigation is still going on in south africa.

Yeh, I think most have come to the conclusion that this whole Iraq - Afghanistan thing was all about money.
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no it wasn't. It was a desire to have a like minded foothold in a very unstable and hostile area. People in power are still people, they still have an innate tendency to suspect and fear anything or anyone unfamiliar, be that individuals or regimes. The opportunity to fulfill a strategic aim to attempt to stabilise or westernise large tracts of the middle east was never going to be passed up. The accelerating spread of Islam, particularly Fundamentalist Islam where Imam's have a say in Policy was seen as an equivalent threat in Asia and the Middle East as the spread of Communism in the Far East.

Yes, there was money to be made, but there was the Holy Grail of 'Preserving Our Way of Life' or more accurately, mitigating any potential risk to our way of life (such as someone turning off the oil and gas). Whether any Group of Nations has the right to do whatever it takes to others to preserve their own way of life is another issue.

The sad fact is, whatever the motivation, the execution was hasty and poorly thought through. The threat from Fundamentalist Islam is greater than ever, young Muslims are more isolated than ever and as such easy targets for ideological programming. The Middle East is as unstable as ever, and the West, or more to the point the UK and US have lost whatever goodwill they had in the region.

As for the gassing... they produced their own gas, we just provided the means of delivery, and there is never an excuse for a Leader arbitrarily killing thousands of people to prove a point.
 
so sending in thousands upon thousands of troops in a desperate attempt to prove bush's point is going to get him charged with murder?

I think he knows he has [Poor language removed] up and throwing body bags at the situation isn't helping.
 

Sadly, walking away would be even worse, politics abhors a vacuum even more than nature. If the regime that is currently being nursed into power is left to the mercies of the insurgents at the moment all you'd get is a couple of years of Civil War followed by an Iran sponsored Fundamentalist Government. This would not be good for anybody, including (perhaps, especially) the Iraqi people.

Once we set foot in Iraq, we reached a point of no return of sorts. It was an all or nothing kind of job. By unseating one regime, we committed ourselves to installing and supporting a replacement. Shame we didn't plan adequately for it, but that's in the past now, and we have to deal with the consequences.
 
absloutley, to 'jump ship' would mean international condemnation for decades - it would also count against any similar action being allowed to be taken in future.
 
And, just to add some fuel to the fire, yesterday, the US House of Representatives (mainly Democrats) voted to support a plan to pull out of Iraq in April of next year.
 
gordonjblair said:
<snip>

Once we set foot in Iraq, we reached a point of no return of sorts. It was an all or nothing kind of job. By unseating one regime, we committed ourselves to installing and supporting a replacement. Shame we didn't plan adequately for it, but that's in the past now, and we have to deal with the consequences.
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If only he had read his fathers book! The failure was not a failure to plan, it was th eplan itself. We opted to back the Shia over Sunni (read worlds minority Muslim population but... the ones sitting on oil and the majority in Iraq) BUT decided we didn't like their leading cleric and sought to have him killed, which not only failed but he found out about it. So now, our allies in the region (reprising the role of North Vietnam) turned against us and we lost the trust of absolutely everyone (except Tony Blair).

I do not agree that leaving would be worse though. Also much like vietnam, when we leave the violence will stop (since it mostly us doing it or that it is directed at. Sure there will be some jockeying for power but those tend to get settled pretty fast.
 
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Vietnam wasn't sitting on a massive reserve of oil though. If we leave that power vacuum will result, and Iran will make a move to secure the oil on offer, as will the terrorist network and possibly Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

Plus if we pull out that just broadcasts the message that all it takes is resistance to beat the American's. Then we become an even bigger target. Everybody will want a piece of us as they know we will cave in eventually, as long as they hold out.

Nope, just because we come up against people who will lose their power if democracy prevails doesn't mean what we are doing is wrong. It has been noted on here the about the old man watching his country destroyed. It wasn't the US who did it, it was the insurgents who saw the opportunity to attack an Army held to a higher standard. If we really were this big bad evil country imposing our will on the world, the the 'hazing' incidents at Abu Ghraib would have been actual torture. US Navy SEALs go through more abuse when they go through BUD/s. We have rules of engagement that we adhere to (no accounting for the odd people, but WE deal with them) the insurgents don't.

How many American soldiers have set off car-bombs killing innocent civilians? Who turned residential areas into war zones?
 
in reverse order...

There has been some dancing around the rules regards who gets treated how - and what constitutes army/soldier apparel - thus regards certain legal precidents there is a certain amount of 'grey area' meaning sometimes some individuals get caught in the net who in fact shouldnt have been.

Another point (and this isnt said too easily) the manner in which the US military wouldnt hand over the recordings of the jets that killed an apc full of brits was ... shall we say... a) a very sad accident, and b) very ill advised.
 
FCConnecticut said:
I do not agree that leaving would be worse though. Also much like vietnam, when we leave the violence will stop (since it mostly us doing it or that it is directed at. Sure there will be some jockeying for power but those tend to get settled pretty fast.
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I have to say that the only thing stopping iraq descending into a three or four way civil war is the so called occupying force - iraq is split into different zones whereby power barons in each area will not back down in their attempt to become the new 'top guy'. The removal of saddam created the vacuum - he ruled with 'the big stick' ie. by force.

now that the deterrent has been removed, insurgents are killing each other as well as taking 'pot shots' at the 'peace keepers'

Also - whoever it was that vetted the 'new police force' that in fact were paid 'death squads' knocking off whoever they liked should resign and shoot themself in the head.

I suspect it will get worse before it gets better.
 
You know Saddam, he was the preverbial "devil you know"

TRUE.

But, not much use in bitching and moaning an event and now that America is talking about leaving I have to say I think thats a mistake too, HOWEVER at this moment in time I haven't got a clue what would be a good idea.

You would have thought someone would have given old george a nudge and said "the terrorists are funded by the saudi's, You're in the WRONG COUNTRY!"

(y)
 

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