Liverpool's owners

[davek]

Laughing here at the American baseball fans who think this is the Red Sox takeover MKII. In this Premier League of ours a club outside the top four (which Liverpool undoubtedly are now) have to OUTSPEND significantly those with the megabucks above them...if you dont believe that then go and look at the spending patterns of team in our league and then look at the winners of major trophies: there's a direct correlation...and that goes for Arsenal too (who seem to be Henry's benchmark). Liverpool will have to get up there and spend on grandstand signings and mega wages to even attempt to compete with United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City and Spurs. The noises from Henry and Werner make it clear they wont be going that route. The other thing to bear in mind is that the Red Sox were transformed commercially by Henry - especially with new tv contracts that gave them a bumper yield and the transformation of a stadium with massively hiked ticket pricing. They were ripe for that type of exploitation; Liverpool are not:

• Liverpool's merchandising is running at full throttle as it is. Ian Ayre and his team over there have done a bang on job gaining big shirt and sponsorship deals and briging through to fruition other merchandising potential, and in nurturing the club's global 'brand'. Not too much more to squeeze from there.
• Because of our collective bargaining over tv rights Henry and Werner cant push on through this route as they did with the Red Sox
• The stadium issue is mired in difficulty for them: they'd love to cut costs by sharing but the fans wont allow it, they dont fancy the existing plans for a go it alone facility limiting them to a 60,000 seater stadium on Stanley Park and the massive outlay in community redevelopment projects that lies within that project, and the city council wont accept their preferred option of redeveloping the existing stadium on a bigger footprint.
• To top it all off the prospect of squeezing maximum prices for tickets out of Liverpool supporters will meet with massive active resistance (the Sons of Shankly Group have already drawn a line in the sand over this issue and - grudging credit where it's due - I wouldn't view that as an idle thrreat).

Bottom line for me is that Henry and Werner will run into trouble in the short term over squad and stadium funding and not be able to match the still sky high expectations of Liverpool's fan base who remain deluded about their club's current status in the game. I reckon Henry/Werner are here for the right to exploit Liverpool's huge potential across all media platforms when or if collective bargaining over broadcasting rights breaks down. That was what Hicks and Gillett were factoring into their valuation of their Liverpool shares before they were unseated. They'll need to play a very cute game to keep a troublesome fanbase onside until that happens.

 

[Matt Damon]

Laughing here at the American baseball fans who think this is the Red Sox takeover MKII. In this Premier League of ours a club outside the top four (which Liverpool undoubtedly are now) have to OUTSPEND significantly those with the megabucks above them...if you dont believe that then go and look at the spending patterns of team in our league and then look at the winners of major trophies: there's a direct correlation...and that goes for Arsenal too (who seem to be Henry's benchmark). Liverpool will have to get up there and spend on grandstand signings and mega wages to even attempt to compete with United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City and Spurs. The noises from Henry and Werner make it clear they wont be going that route. The other thing to bear in mind is that the Red Sox were transformed commercially by Henry - especially with new tv contracts that gave them a bumper yield and the transformation of a stadium with massively hiked ticket pricing. They were ripe for that type of exploitation; Liverpool are not:

• Liverpool's merchandising is running at full throttle as it is. Ian Ayre and his team over there have done a bang on job gaining big shirt and sponsorship deals and briging through to fruition other merchandising potential, and in nurturing the club's global 'brand'. Not too much more to squeeze from there.
• Because of our collective bargaining over tv rights Henry and Werner cant push on through this route as they did with the Red Sox
• The stadium issue is mired in difficulty for them: they'd love to cut costs by sharing but the fans wont allow it, they dont fancy the existing plans for a go it alone facility limiting them to a 60,000 seater stadium on Stanley Park and the massive outlay in community redevelopment projects that lies within that project, and the city council wont accept their preferred option of redeveloping the existing stadium on a bigger footprint.
• To top it all off the prospect of squeezing maximum prices for tickets out of Liverpool supporters will meet with massive active resistance (the Sons of Shankly Group have already drawn a line in the sand over this issue and - grudging credit where it's due - I wouldn't view that as an idle thrreat).

Bottom line for me is that Henry and Werner will run into trouble in the short term over squad and stadium funding and not be able to match the still sky high expectations of Liverpool's fan base who remain deluded about their club's current status in the game. I reckon Henry/Werner are here for the right to exploit Liverpool's huge potential across all media platforms when or if collective bargaining over broadcasting rights breaks down. That was what Hicks and Gillett were factoring into their valuation of their Liverpool shares before they were unseated. They'll need to play a very cute game to keep a troublesome fanbase onside until that happens.

Another political manifesto from Davek there.

Can't say I disagree with him when it comes to the Kopites.

 

[davideinstein]

Laughing here at the American baseball fans who think this is the Red Sox takeover MKII. In this Premier League of ours a club outside the top four (which Liverpool undoubtedly are now) have to OUTSPEND significantly those with the megabucks above them...if you dont believe that then go and look at the spending patterns of team in our league and then look at the winners of major trophies: there's a direct correlation...and that goes for Arsenal too (who seem to be Henry's benchmark). Liverpool will have to get up there and spend on grandstand signings and mega wages to even attempt to compete with United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City and Spurs. The noises from Henry and Werner make it clear they wont be going that route. The other thing to bear in mind is that the Red Sox were transformed commercially by Henry - especially with new tv contracts that gave them a bumper yield and the transformation of a stadium with massively hiked ticket pricing. They were ripe for that type of exploitation; Liverpool are not:

• Liverpool's merchandising is running at full throttle as it is. Ian Ayre and his team over there have done a bang on job gaining big shirt and sponsorship deals and briging through to fruition other merchandising potential, and in nurturing the club's global 'brand'. Not too much more to squeeze from there.
• Because of our collective bargaining over tv rights Henry and Werner cant push on through this route as they did with the Red Sox
• The stadium issue is mired in difficulty for them: they'd love to cut costs by sharing but the fans wont allow it, they dont fancy the existing plans for a go it alone facility limiting them to a 60,000 seater stadium on Stanley Park and the massive outlay in community redevelopment projects that lies within that project, and the city council wont accept their preferred option of redeveloping the existing stadium on a bigger footprint.
• To top it all off the prospect of squeezing maximum prices for tickets out of Liverpool supporters will meet with massive active resistance (the Sons of Shankly Group have already drawn a line in the sand over this issue and - grudging credit where it's due - I wouldn't view that as an idle thrreat).

Bottom line for me is that Henry and Werner will run into trouble in the short term over squad and stadium funding and not be able to match the still sky high expectations of Liverpool's fan base who remain deluded about their club's current status in the game. I reckon Henry/Werner are here for the right to exploit Liverpool's huge potential across all media platforms when or if collective bargaining over broadcasting rights breaks down. That was what Hicks and Gillett were factoring into their valuation of their Liverpool shares before they were unseated. They'll need to play a very cute game to keep a troublesome fanbase onside until that happens.

Are you really making the argument Henry gained much from being exclusive to NESN? That's a regional sports network and every single team in the MLB has a regional television network, all of which are available nationally through MLB Extra Innings which is split between all teams. This is not similar to something like Notre Dame has with their American Football contract with NBC, for example. So, sure...Henry may have taken the Red Sox to a regional market instead of a bunch of local markets within the region, but this is not some out of this world strategy. Every MLB team did this.

And Henry will spend, just not like Hicks did. He will spend but spend intelligently. The payroll for the Red Sox increased under Henry, but he wasn't signing one player to a 250 million dollar deal like Hicks was. And Henry is very familiar with the stadium situation, the same thing has been an issue with Fenway for years being it has the lowest capacity in the entire league.

 

[davideinstein]

Anyhow, we can agree to disagree. But I think Henry is an excellent sports business mind and will do well.

 

[davek]

Are you really making the argument Henry gained much from being exclusive to NESN? That's a regional sports network and every single team in the MLB has a regional television network, all of which are available nationally through MLB Extra Innings which is split between all teams. This is not similar to something like Notre Dame has with their American Football contract with NBC, for example. So, sure...Henry may have taken the Red Sox to a regional market instead of a bunch of local markets within the region, but this is not some out of this world strategy. Every MLB team did this.

And Henry will spend, just not like Hicks did. He will spend but spend intelligently. The payroll for the Red Sox increased under Henry, but he wasn't signing one player to a 250 million dollar deal like Hicks was. And Henry is very familiar with the stadium situation, the same thing has been an issue with Fenway for years being it has the lowest capacity in the entire league.

Henry and Werner have limited scope to do what they did in Boston here in Liverpool. That's the point.

Spending intelligently? Well, that's pretty much what all clubs believe they do. It's what we do and look where we are. And evolution wont do the trick with Liverpool's support base. They want it all, and they want it right now.

Personally, I think they'll have to change their tune on the prudence stuff and start pumping big money into a squad overhaul starting in January and continuing in the summer. If they dont, and Liverpool are in the doldrums early next season, Henry/Werner will be facing a revolt. They dont have as much time to turn things around as they think they do.

 

[Matt Damon]

Henry and Werner have limited scope to do what they did in Boston here in Liverpool. That's the point.

Spending intelligently? Well, that's pretty much what all clubs believe they do. It's what we do and look where we are. And evolution wont do the trick with Liverpool's support base. They want it all, and they want it right now.

Personally, I think they'll have to change their tune on the prudence stuff and start pumping big money into a squad overhaul starting in January and continuing in the summer. If they dont, and Liverpool are in the doldrums early next season, Henry/Werner will be facing a revolt. They dont have as much time to turn things around as they think they do.

He's right. That lot aren't happy unless they're spending £25m on a player every window.

Thats why their youth teams gone to [Poor language removed].

 

[Arteta's Girl]

Laughing here at the American baseball fans who think this is the Red Sox takeover MKII. In this Premier League of ours a club outside the top four (which Liverpool undoubtedly are now) have to OUTSPEND significantly those with the megabucks above them...if you dont believe that then go and look at the spending patterns of team in our league and then look at the winners of major trophies: there's a direct correlation...and that goes for Arsenal too (who seem to be Henry's benchmark). Liverpool will have to get up there and spend on grandstand signings and mega wages to even attempt to compete with United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City and Spurs. The noises from Henry and Werner make it clear they wont be going that route. The other thing to bear in mind is that the Red Sox were transformed commercially by Henry - especially with new tv contracts that gave them a bumper yield and the transformation of a stadium with massively hiked ticket pricing. They were ripe for that type of exploitation; Liverpool are not:

• Liverpool's merchandising is running at full throttle as it is. Ian Ayre and his team over there have done a bang on job gaining big shirt and sponsorship deals and briging through to fruition other merchandising potential, and in nurturing the club's global 'brand'. Not too much more to squeeze from there.
• Because of our collective bargaining over tv rights Henry and Werner cant push on through this route as they did with the Red Sox
• The stadium issue is mired in difficulty for them: they'd love to cut costs by sharing but the fans wont allow it, they dont fancy the existing plans for a go it alone facility limiting them to a 60,000 seater stadium on Stanley Park and the massive outlay in community redevelopment projects that lies within that project, and the city council wont accept their preferred option of redeveloping the existing stadium on a bigger footprint.
• To top it all off the prospect of squeezing maximum prices for tickets out of Liverpool supporters will meet with massive active resistance (the Sons of Shankly Group have already drawn a line in the sand over this issue and - grudging credit where it's due - I wouldn't view that as an idle thrreat).

Bottom line for me is that Henry and Werner will run into trouble in the short term over squad and stadium funding and not be able to match the still sky high expectations of Liverpool's fan base who remain deluded about their club's current status in the game. I reckon Henry/Werner are here for the right to exploit Liverpool's huge potential across all media platforms when or if collective bargaining over broadcasting rights breaks down. That was what Hicks and Gillett were factoring into their valuation of their Liverpool shares before they were unseated. They'll need to play a very cute game to keep a troublesome fanbase onside until that happens.

I was going to reply to this thread with an answer meaning the same as this but it wouldn't have been anywhere near as good as this post.

 

[davideinstein]

Henry and Werner have limited scope to do what they did in Boston here in Liverpool. That's the point.

Spending intelligently? Well, that's pretty much what all clubs believe they do. It's what we do and look where we are. And evolution wont do the trick with Liverpool's support base. They want it all, and they want it right now.

Personally, I think they'll have to change their tune on the prudence stuff and start pumping big money into a squad overhaul starting in January and continuing in the summer. If they dont, and Liverpool are in the doldrums early next season, Henry/Werner will be facing a revolt. They dont have as much time to turn things around as they think they do.

Are you familiar with sabermetrics? That was the difference between Hicks and Henry in MLB. The two owners are not even remotely comparable, which is the simple point I'm trying to make. It's as if everyone across the pond is going "Oh, another Yank. Fail!" without knowing the difference between the two. And I agree they'll spend money, but it won't be stupid money like Hicks has a track record over multiple leagues for throwing players.

Also, the transformation of Fenway was 274 seats on the Green Monster which are priced slightly higher than the field box seats and a couple of thousand cheap seats that capped off the capacity at 37K. This was not nearly enough to justify the spending Henry has done even though the renovations were good for the park.

 

[chicoazul]

Are you familiar with sabermetrics?

What the [Poor language removed] does that mean?

 

[johnnydawg68]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabermetrics

Essentially it's data analysis as a way to search for objective knowledge rather than observational opinion. It's for nerds

 

[davideinstein]

What the [Poor language removed] does that mean?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/8098829/Liverpool-owners-looking-to-use-baseball-principles-such-as-Moneyball-and-Sabermetrics.html

 

[chicoazul]

Thanks.

 

[davek]

Are you familiar with sabermetrics? That was the difference between Hicks and Henry in MLB. The two owners are not even remotely comparable, which is the simple point I'm trying to make. It's as if everyone across the pond is going "Oh, another Yank. Fail!" without knowing the difference between the two. And I agree they'll spend money, but it won't be stupid money like Hicks has a track record over multiple leagues for throwing players.

Also, the transformation of Fenway was 274 seats on the Green Monster which are priced slightly higher than the field box seats and a couple of thousand cheap seats that capped off the capacity at 37K. This was not nearly enough to justify the spending Henry has done even though the renovations were good for the park.

Oh right, using analysis to improve player value. Why didn't we think of that? 'It's ok Kenwrong, doesn't matter that you're a pauper, we can just get this Yankee know-how on board. Sorted'.

Jesus wept, mate. I'll say it for the last time: if this NESV lot dont splash the cash in the same magnitude as the big clubs in this Premier League of ours then they'll win precisley fcuk all and be chased out of town.

 

[tsubaki]

Oh right, using analysis to improve player value. Why didn't we think of that? 'It's ok Kenwrong, doesn't matter that you're a pauper, we can just get this Yankee know-how on board. Sorted'.

Jesus wept, mate. I'll say it for the last time: if this NESV lot dont splash the cash in the same magnitude as the big clubs in this Premier League of ours then they'll win precisley fcuk all and be chased out of town.

That is almost certainly what will happen, and IMHO something like sabermetrics is probably a lot more likely to pay dividents in a more individual sport like baseball than it ever will over here. Still, it will probably benefit them over there to have someone look into the rational and science (and most importantly who isnt Benitez) buying players.

 

[davek]

That is almost certainly what will happen, and IMHO something like sabermetrics is probably a lot more likely to pay dividents in a more individual sport like baseball than it ever will over here. Still, it will probably benefit them over there to have someone look into the rational and science (and most importantly who isnt Benitez) buying players.

This is what amuses me: the belief that there's a magic formula out there that can get you out of the need to constantly throw millions at squad strengthening. Of course, we in our position would love it to be so. Moyes brought a bit of common sense to the buying and selling of players when he arrived 8 years ago - evaluating what he can get performance-wise from targetted spending + factoring in their sell on value. Unfortunately, it's got us nowhere in the end as a competitive organisation. You just build up, and make a virtue out of, a culture of make do and mend. Liverpool are a different proposition who can supplement that approach with some grandstand signings from the NESV wallet. Even so, that route will still see them miles off the pace of the elite they've fallen out of.