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2019/20 Marco Silva

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roydo said:
And if he had never played for us you would say the same?
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I'm not really Arteta in, however I do think his time with the club is one factor in his favour. I know people understandably talk about an old boys club etc however there are a couple of points on this. Firstly when we were characterised as an "old boys club" (i.e. not massively ruthless with our players and manager) we actually performed a damn site better than we are now. There will be a glass ceiling of course, but that glass ceiling is a fair bit above where we are currently at.

The second reason is that in general, knowing a workplace/culture you are going into is generally a help. Moyes and particularly Martinez at times got given more time to achieve something here because they were well liked by fans. I know it's a small thing, but having the fans on side can help. It can help at difficult moments and give you a better chance to achieve what you are trying to do. If Silva fails here, it may be because he just couldn't get long enough with the squad.

I am not pro Arteta. I don't think we are really ready for a big gamble on a young coach as a fanbase. We seem to be happy to give people a year. We need to find a manager who is good at making quite a quick impact.
 
MarcelsGoat said:
Ive also spent the last few days looking at cash spent by teams.

We all have this impression that we have proper spent the dough the last few years and we have compared to what went before, but so has almost every team in the league.

We have spent just over 80m in 3 transfer windows, imagine Joses face when you told him he would have 30m every window, which after you take away his 15m a year in wages would be 15m every window.

Then once the stadium loans kick in would be around 5m a window.

WELCOME TO EVERTON JOSE
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I'm not sure how familiar you are with the football inflation calculator. It is far from a perfect method (as few things could be) but there has to be an acceptance of the level of spend City and Chelsea had in their first 3-4 years of their takeovers. In todays money both spent 1.5-2bn in the first 3-4 years, and the majority of that was net. They blew the rest of the league away. In the modern context they went and signed (for example), Van Dijk, Hazard, Ronaldo, Kane, Lukaku etc alongside a whole host of very good players.

There has been an idea knocking around we are emulating this. We are not, and I'm not sure anyone is able too. If we were emulating what they did, in truth Mourinho would be an option (and a good option). You sign the best players and get an elite manager to manage them. We spend decently, certainly the best sound we've had in some time, arguably only the mid to late 90's is the only bit we're we are close. However it's a long way off City and Chelsea.
 
Seemed to be able to dig out a win even in the bad parts of last season when the pressure was growing. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if we just swept Burnley aside.
 
Saint Domingo said:
People wanting Silva our and Arteta in? Has relegation written all over it. Big Sam would be back in post once Arteta had fully botched us over the Christmas period. Imagine him asking Schneiderlin to just do what De Bruyne does or tell DCL to create something out of nothing like Aguero used to. It would be laughable.
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If you want Arteta in, I do think he would need a pre-season really. For all the criticism he had, I am not sure we have really moved very far forward from sacking Koeman. He'd had just finished his final year of his contract. Had we have kept him on would we be in much of a worse position, minus spending a huge amount of money on managers?

I'm glad we did in as much as we got rid of Walsh and went in a different direction, but sacking managers is not shortcut to success.

There seems to be some dissonance with supporters, on the one hand who say Calvert Lewin is the worst striker in the league, but on the other think we ought to be top 6. I'm not sure how they can both be true?
 

catcherintherye said:
If you want Arteta in, I do think he would need a pre-season really. For all the criticism he had, I am not sure we have really moved very far forward from sacking Koeman. He'd had just finished his final year of his contract. Had we have kept him on would we be in much of a worse position, minus spending a huge amount of money on managers?

I'm glad we did in as much as we got rid of Walsh and went in a different direction, but sacking managers is not shortcut to success.

There seems to be some dissonance with supporters, on the one hand who say Calvert Lewin is the worst striker in the league, but on the other think we ought to be top 6. I'm not sure how they can both be true?
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My view is that Martinez dismantled a top 6 squad and left us with a lower end premier league squad that had a potential class spine in Stones Barkley Lukaku. Koeman had to sell those players but recruited terribly to replace them with the likes of Williams Keane Schneiderlin Siggurdson Sandro etc. We were then left with an absolutely horrific squad which Silva ultimately inherited after Allardyce. I think we’ve recruited far better since Brands came in but Silva’s job is a hard one as he’s only ever an injury or two away from having to fall back on the same inadequate players.
 
Saint Domingo said:
My view is that Martinez dismantled a top 6 squad and left us with a lower end premier league squad that had a potential class spine in Stones Barkley Lukaku. Koeman had to sell those players but recruited terribly to replace them with the likes of Williams Keane Schneiderlin Siggurdson Sandro etc. We were then left with an absolutely horrific squad which Silva ultimately inherited after Allardyce. I think we’ve recruited far better since Brands came in but Silva’s job is a hard one as he’s only ever an injury or two away from having to fall back on the same inadequate players.
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Yes there's not a lot to argue with there. I will probably be a bit more sympathetic to Martinez. I can see what he was trying to do, which is used the solid foundations Moyes had built and be more aggressive. He clearly targeted cup competitions more and probably felt winning a cup and dropping a few places in the league would have been a price worth paying. He was close to doing that as well.

Unfortunately for him, the back 5 he inherited fell away very quickly. Distin/Howard became a liability, and Baines/Coleman were nowhere near as effective after season 1 (again not helped with Barry declining in ability too). So the foundations came caving in. To an extent Deulufeo and Barkley didn't kick on, Mirallas sulked and Lukaku had his big break out season a year too late.

It's hard to put much more of a defence after that. Koemans method to success, notably of buying experienced PL players was never going to get us anywhere. Even Allardyce, for all his faults would have done better, as I think he'd have been a shrewder negotiator in the market, utilising loans and frees better.

You are right though, we were in a far bigger mess when Silva arrived than Allardyce. Far fewer big saleable assets to help boost the coffers. A key player in Sigurdsson who doesn't suit the system he wants to play, so an immediate conundrum. I hope the reports that Silva is waiting until he gets players back to implement his system are true. If we have Gbamin and Gomes in midfield it has a very different feel to it, as well as Iwobi in the team.

His big issue now though mate, is going to be avoiding a crisis coming over us. I saw it with Martinez and Koeman. For all their mistakes, what kills them is when the fans completely turn. We are currently very close to that. I think two more defeats back to back and we are there, in full panic mode. Our board have shown an absence of cool clinical heads in these positions. These Arteta shouts will get louder and Kenwright knows Cahill. It's strange, as in truth if Moyes came back with them I think we'd probably be ok (unpopular view I know) but I do think we need to push ahead with the plan A ideally.

He was nearly done last spring I'd say and he came out fighting. We need a gritty win like Cardiff away, a clean sheet to get us going. We could really do without Pickford throwing another one in. The life of an Evertonian eh!
 
I would be very wary of Arteta, what happens if he were to struggle initially and the knives come out?

It would be surprising if Brands chose him when there is a whole world of managers out there.

The issue with our process is that there is no process.

Arteta is the sort of guy you appoint from a position of strength when you can afford a risk.

If Silva goes in the short term then we are a basket case club, that doesn't mean he deserves to stay come what may but how many times can we get it wrong again without dire consequences?

We need experience, toughness, nous, character and passion on the sideline.

The club has either been too big for the last few occupants or not big enough as was the case for Jughead.
 
brieverton said:
I would be very wary of Arteta, what happens if he were to struggle initially and the knives come out?

It would be surprising if Brands chose him when there is a whole world of managers out there.

The issue with our process is that there is no process.

Arteta is the sort of guy you appoint from a position of strength when you can afford a risk.

If Silva goes in the short term then we are a basket case club, that doesn't mean he deserves to stay come what may but how many times can we get it wrong again without dire consequences?

We need experience, toughness, nous, character and passion on the sideline.

The club has either been too big for the last few occupants or not big enough as was the case for Jughead.
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Leicester change managers as much as we do and no one considers them a basket case club.
 

catcherintherye said:
Yes there's not a lot to argue with there. I will probably be a bit more sympathetic to Martinez. I can see what he was trying to do, which is used the solid foundations Moyes had built and be more aggressive. He clearly targeted cup competitions more and probably felt winning a cup and dropping a few places in the league would have been a price worth paying. He was close to doing that as well.

Unfortunately for him, the back 5 he inherited fell away very quickly. Distin/Howard became a liability, and Baines/Coleman were nowhere near as effective after season 1 (again not helped with Barry declining in ability too). So the foundations came caving in. To an extent Deulufeo and Barkley didn't kick on, Mirallas sulked and Lukaku had his big break out season a year too late.

It's hard to put much more of a defence after that. Koemans method to success, notably of buying experienced PL players was never going to get us anywhere. Even Allardyce, for all his faults would have done better, as I think he'd have been a shrewder negotiator in the market, utilising loans and frees better.

You are right though, we were in a far bigger mess when Silva arrived than Allardyce. Far fewer big saleable assets to help boost the coffers. A key player in Sigurdsson who doesn't suit the system he wants to play, so an immediate conundrum. I hope the reports that Silva is waiting until he gets players back to implement his system are true. If we have Gbamin and Gomes in midfield it has a very different feel to it, as well as Iwobi in the team.

His big issue now though mate, is going to be avoiding a crisis coming over us. I saw it with Martinez and Koeman. For all their mistakes, what kills them is when the fans completely turn. We are currently very close to that. I think two more defeats back to back and we are there, in full panic mode. Our board have shown an absence of cool clinical heads in these positions. These Arteta shouts will get louder and Kenwright knows Cahill. It's strange, as in truth if Moyes came back with them I think we'd probably be ok (unpopular view I know) but I do think we need to push ahead with the plan A ideally.

He was nearly done last spring I'd say and he came out fighting. We need a gritty win like Cardiff away, a clean sheet to get us going. We could really do without Pickford throwing another one in. The life of an Evertonian eh!
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The Cardiff away win last season is always the one that springs to my mind along with the Chelsea second half. When Silva has been in the last chance saloon (which he’s close to again) he’s mostly found a win when needed. That’s what ultimately did for Martinez and Koeman as it became apparent that they couldn’t inspire a performance from the players any more. Silva has found an answer each time so far and I think like you said he needs another one this weekend.
 
Saint Domingo said:
The Cardiff away win last season is always the one that springs to my mind along with the Chelsea second half. When Silva has been in the last chance saloon (which he’s close to again) he’s mostly found a win when needed. That’s what ultimately did for Martinez and Koeman as it became apparent that they couldn’t inspire a performance from the players any more. Silva has found an answer each time so far and I think like you said he needs another one this weekend.
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Yes I mean he got something of a reaction against City and Sheffield Wed. If we lose to Burnley there will be enormous pressure especially with an international break. However 2 good wins against them last season is something to aim for. Fabianski out for West Ham the following game is good for us too.
 

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