2019/20 Michael Keane

[Neiler]

I think the first part is a bit of an over simplification of what we are trying to do. We are defending deeper and ensuring we have a good defensive structure in front of them. On the whole this does seem to work quite well. We are in agreement we got lucky against Leicester but in the previous 2 games we performed the system very well. From a defensive standpoint, if you are well drilled it is actually very hard to break down. You reduce the number of easy goals you give away with long straight balls etc.

The flip of this, is that you have to be clinical on the counter. I think-particularly against Leicester that is the area that needs improvement. We need to pick the right pass better and be a bit more clinical. To me Calvert Lewin has to up his levels a bit on the counter. He should have had a penalty last night, but he has to take that ball across Soyuncu (this is what Vardy does) and then there is absolutely no doubt he gets the penalty. He's improved a lot at this, but it's the final step. Either way though, that is more about improving what we do now, rather than re-start it.

As for the final point, yes I agree. We can buy players who can play that system. My contention is that to buy players who can play it well (rather than cheap imitations like we've had under Martinez onwards) costs money and takes a lot of time. Due to FFP restrictions we are quite restricted in this regard. I also thinl, without getting into Europe consistently you have little chance of attracting the players who are of the right calibre to come.

I don't doubt that at some point you have to make the switch, but you can do this far too prematurely from our own experiences.

Just to add to that brilliant post mate - i think much of how we are playing is to compensate for a poor - allbeit - injury ravaged midfield. A relief for injury and more recruitment in central midfield i think will see a change in how we set up.

I must say i enjoy us playing a deep a line, we look far more solid and likely to get results, though we have an outside hope of Europe - realistically we playing for money for the summer with 2 mill per PL place, getting as high up the table as possible is critical.

 

[Lanolin]

I think the first part is a bit of an over simplification of what we are trying to do. We are defending deeper and ensuring we have a good defensive structure in front of them. On the whole this does seem to work quite well. We are in agreement we got lucky against Leicester but in the previous 2 games we performed the system very well. From a defensive standpoint, if you are well drilled it is actually very hard to break down. You reduce the number of easy goals you give away with long straight balls etc.

The flip of this, is that you have to be clinical on the counter. I think-particularly against Leicester that is the area that needs improvement. We need to pick the right pass better and be a bit more clinical. To me Calvert Lewin has to up his levels a bit on the counter. He should have had a penalty last night, but he has to take that ball across Soyuncu (this is what Vardy does) and then there is absolutely no doubt he gets the penalty. He's improved a lot at this, but it's the final step. Either way though, that is more about improving what we do now, rather than re-start it.

As for the final point, yes I agree. We can buy players who can play that system. My contention is that to buy players who can play it well (rather than cheap imitations like we've had under Martinez onwards) costs money and takes a lot of time. Due to FFP restrictions we are quite restricted in this regard. I also thinl, without getting into Europe consistently you have little chance of attracting the players who are of the right calibre to come.

I don't doubt that at some point you have to make the switch, but you can do this far too prematurely from our own experiences.

It's you who's oversimplifying it I think. You're saying people want us to play a high line, but I don't think that's particularly true. I don't want us to play a high line per se, I want us to play on the front foot, and I think that's what most people are saying. We don't have to be defending on the halfway line with everyone bombing on, but we can't just camp out with 10 men on the edge of the box either, there's a middle ground. As I said last night though, Keane is only really good in a very low block, with a very tight formation around him. The second you lose that he becomes a problem, as evidenced by him being embarrassed by Vardy on literally the only occasion he was left in a position where he was remotely isolated. That's what i'm talking about. You can't constantly protect him and be progressive, if you want your midfielders to join the attack and don't want your wingers to be auxillary full backs like Iwobi has been over the last month, then he will start to find himself in those positions more often, and that's a problem.

 

[TheSecondComing]

Penalty Box Defending: Nesta

High Line Defending: Bramble

 

[zook]

I'm fully aware we're average, you won't find me arguing there. In fact i've been unsuccessfully trying to convince other people of it for years. I'm also fully aware that we aren't going to turn into league challengers overnight. That doesn't mean I don't want us to improve though. In my opinion, sitting at the edge of your box repelling attack after attack will not get us past the level we're at now. It will get us some good results, but ultimately we will end up just regressing back to the normal level. We'll come up against sides who aren't as desperate to make the running as the 3 we've played most recently have been, we'll concede the first goal and not be able to play that way, and we'll come up against sides who have realised that's how we play and so come up with ways to counter it. It will also be very difficult to execute in front of full grounds, in away games because the opposition will be buoyed by the crowd and in home games because there's not a chance in hell Goodison will accept us sitting back not trying to lay a finger on the opposition for 80 minutes.

You're just using faulty logic really. You're basically saying that because we've tried to play a high line with players who can't do it, playing a high line won't work for us. The really quite astonishingly simple answer to that being 'buy players who can do it'.

I think we should keep the system of forming a low block out of possesion, keeping our shape and discipline, but just add in a centre mid (or 2) who can progress the ball quickly, are better ballwinners and are harder to dribble past than what we currently have, a right back - that's solid like Coleman defensively - but capable of contributing to what we create while in possesion, and a left footed option for the right midfield that can open space for that right back to overlap.

 

[Lanolin]

I think we should keep the system of forming a low block out of possesion, keeping our shape and discipline, but just add in a centre mid (or 2) who can progress the ball quickly, are better ballwinners and are harder to dribble past than what we currently have, a right back - that's solid like Coleman defensively - but capable of contributing to what we create while in possesion, and a left footed option for the right midfield that can open space for that right back to overlap.

Yeah I'd agree with that in the main. Playing the way we are with the players we have is the right thing to do, I'm not complaining about us doing it in the short term at all. But I would hope that we're only playing this way because we can't compete in midfield. Once we are able to do that, I think it changes everything. I think sometimes people fall into the trap of thinking that you can keep everything that you like exactly the same, but change the things you don't like - but football doesn't work like that, it's a fluid game where every aspect affects the overall picture. Once you have midfielders who you want to get on the ball and influence the game, you can't ask them to just sit in front of the defence. Once they aren't just sitting in front of the defence, gaps appear where there are none at the moment. Once those gaps appear, people move into them and run at Keane. Same with the right back pushing on in a way that Coleman isn't. That's what I mean by not getting anywhere playing this way. Why some people seem to think the only options are to play Martinez style kamikaze football or play like we have over the last week I don't know. You can still build from a solid defence and be disciplined without taking it to the extremes we're having to do at the moment.

 

[Toffeelover]

it is thanks to him in the last couple of games we have added 5 points.

 

[Carlito]

Well all of that is true but I suppose we have to be realistic where we are. We are a below par team and have been for some time now. We generally score betwen 47-55 points. Thats essentially the range we were at under Walter Smith. Becuase the league has become further elongated, that points total tends to get you 10th-8th as opposed to 10th-15th as it used to. However you can call us an average team and that would not be an unfair descriptor at all.

We then seem to have what I can only view as an arrogance that we need to try and emulate what Liverpool or City do and that we should turn our nose up at what Moyes did. They are not far off twice our points totals. You are asking a group of players to do something, that in most cases they are incapable of doing. We have tried to repeat this time and again and on each occasion fallen short. The concern i have, is that Bournemouth try to do it as well, and are going to get relegated this season as a result. To a degree Norwich try to play that way as well, they will also get relegated. My fear is, once we take the blinkers off, we are more likely to become a Bournemouth than a Liverpool.

There have been 3 exceptions to this over the last 6 years. One under Koeman, where we ditched his principles, went back to basics and played more direct for Lukaku. We have a goot 15 game run. Last season under Silva at the back end we had again another decent 13 games going back to basics. Now under Ancelotti/Ferguson we have lost 3 league games in 17 and sit 4th in the table over that period. Again it's been built on doing the basics right.


On the previous 2 occasions (Silva/Koeman) we ripped up what worked in search of this holy grail and flopped. I think we need a prolonged spell of consolidating what we have done under Ancelotti/Ferguson. Yes you have to play the margins a bit, and have a bit of luck, but for the most part you begin to establish yourselves higher up the league. This is what Wolves are doing. There's no magic in that team, but they do the basics well, play their system and keep getting better at it.

Moyes did this too under Smith. It probably took him 3-4 years to begin to move away from it. We finished 4th under Moyes doing it, but unfortunately didn't have the clout to then consolidate and kick on. We do now.

Leicester won the league doing it. Atletico Madrid won the league on a couple of occasions and were minutes away from winning the CL. You can be successful doing it. I can see an argument that in the longer term a change will have to be made, but I also think the in the short to medium term for us to move from something that works would be a naive thing to do.

Coming on strong once there's nothing left to play for has been a hallmark of most of the better league finishes we've seen in recent memory. Take away the pressure of the fans, too, and you've got a perfect scenario.

With Keane, the period where he was put on the right of a three and had to step out to meet Vardy showed his limitations, but then we already knew that his game is sitting deep and denying space. If this 'back to basics' approach is going to continue into next season, there's no real reason to prioritise replacing him, but I suppose we won't know if that's the case until the summer window closes.

 

[LocalNative]

Glad to hear he's playing well but what you say is actually the problem with him. Mentally he always seems 10 minutes from going from great to useless.

Perhaps. But let's be honest, all previous managers he's played under have been incompetent.. particularly defensively. He's very much a confidence player, I remember an interview with him stating how difficult his first season here was and that he didn't want to leave the house. But if we can keep him in this form and mentality, he'll be incredibly useful.

 

[Rugby Toffee]

The break has dome him good , looksa decent partnership alongside Holgate.

 

[blueblue]

The break has dome him good , looksa decent partnership alongside Holgate.

I think the break has allowed the manager to get his stamp on everything.

When he arrived first there was a hectic schedule of games and he was only going from week to week.
The break and the return to " pre season" has given him far more control of what he wants.

 

[ramacca]

I'm not his biggest fan but boy has he put in 3 sterling performances since the restart. Seems like Ancelotti maybe working on and instilling some strong defending into him. Well done to the lad, let's hope this continues.

 

[catcherintherye]

Coming on strong once there's nothing left to play for has been a hallmark of most of the better league finishes we've seen in recent memory. Take away the pressure of the fans, too, and you've got a perfect scenario.

With Keane, the period where he was put on the right of a three and had to step out to meet Vardy showed his limitations, but then we already knew that his game is sitting deep and denying space. If this 'back to basics' approach is going to continue into next season, there's no real reason to prioritise replacing him, but I suppose we won't know if that's the case until the summer window closes.

I suppose my point is, do we think we are going to advance enough in one summer to justify moving on from the current tactics that are working?

 

[Cool_Blue]

Looks confident stepping up and getting on the ball as well. He is better when he doesn’t overthink it

This is the difference I see. I’ve criticised him quite a bit, but suddenly he actually looks confident on the ball and his skill level appears to have gone up a tad. The non-crowd thing could be a factor, let’s hope he‘s conquered his mental fragility.

 

[marcus]

Keane has been brilliant since lockdown let's hope it continues...

 

[Eggs]

It's you who's oversimplifying it I think. You're saying people want us to play a high line, but I don't think that's particularly true. I don't want us to play a high line per se, I want us to play on the front foot, and I think that's what most people are saying. We don't have to be defending on the halfway line with everyone bombing on, but we can't just camp out with 10 men on the edge of the box either, there's a middle ground. As I said last night though, Keane is only really good in a very low block, with a very tight formation around him. The second you lose that he becomes a problem, as evidenced by him being embarrassed by Vardy on literally the only occasion he was left in a position where he was remotely isolated. That's what i'm talking about. You can't constantly protect him and be progressive, if you want your midfielders to join the attack and don't want your wingers to be auxillary full backs like Iwobi has been over the last month, then he will start to find himself in those positions more often, and that's a problem.

....for me it’s about how Ancelotti wants to set his team up as opposed to how he’s having to set his team up. Play deep or not play deep.

Brands/Ancelotti will have a strategic team model and they will acquire players to fit that model.

If Keane doesn’t fit the strategic team model he should be shifted when his stock is at its highest. Whilst I accept he’s playing really well, I’m not a fan and I’d certainly be thinking this is the ideal time to cash in.