Install the app
How to install the app on iOS

Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.

Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.

 

2020/21 Michael Keane

Status
Not open for further replies.
MikelsGoat said:
You know who loves it when teams play a high line, all the good teams in the league, they love being able to pass over your CBs, love it they do.

You know who doesn't like a high line? Carlo Ancelotti.

Utter horse muck that Holgate has ever been our best CB, he's played very well at times, but Keane has been head and shoulders for a very long time.

And of course you trade Gabriel for Keane, would expect nothing else from somebody who falls in love with names and ignores talent.
Click to expand...

The fact that you believe Keane is the best centre back for 2 seasons running is astounding...he wasnt even first or second choice under Ancelotti until lockdown.

Not really sure why youre repeatedly twisting my words...

Ive said many times that im fine playing deep...but then we need a Militao type to play on the right. Not an attacking player.

Also we would need a defensive midfielder who can act as a playmaker to take the ball from defence and up the pitch.

You mention "all the good teams in the league" play a high line. Which basically says that to be a good team you believe we need to play a high line.

Which also means that Keane wouldnt fit in that team. It also means you dont believe he would get in a "good team in the league".
 
Zatara said:
The fact that you believe Keane is the best centre back for 2 seasons running is astounding...he wasnt even first or second choice under Ancelotti until lockdown.

Not really sure why youre repeatedly twisting my words...

Ive said many times that im fine playing deep...but then we need a Militao type to play on the right. Not an attacking player.

Also we would need a defensive midfielder who can act as a playmaker to take the ball from defence and up the pitch.

You mention "all the good teams in the league" play a high line. Which basically says that to be a good team you believe we need to play a high line.

Which also means that Keane wouldnt fit in that team. It also means you dont believe he would get in a "good team in the league".
Click to expand...
No, I said they love it when they face a high line.

I didn't say they all play a high line, see how easy those Leicester goals were tonight, long punt over the top, BOOM, goal. Have a look at 80% of Liverpools goals last season.

They love it when morons leave space.

Stop twisting MY words.

We do agree that we need a different CM than what we have, so let's leave it there.
 
Zatara said:
Yes, usually I'd point to Atletico Madrid as a team which can be very effective playing somewhat deep.

However, even Simeone has now switched things so when theyre playing 442 their full backs push high up the pitch. Almost making them a 2224 system. He's also frequently dabbled with the 352 system so its a different style to the past few seasons.

The setup we currently have may be very effective in keeping clean sheets, though it does indeed isolate the forward players. We really need our attacking play to be top notch if our defence is so far behind the play.

Even if we focus on having a flat back four (full backs not frequently pushing forward) then to really dominate teams we would need to have a high line. This is actually impossible with both Keane and Mina.

Im quite open minded about it really. I would say that if we want to continue the deep defensive setup then we would need to have a superstar central or defensive midfielder who can carry the ball or act as a deep playmaker.

It will be interesting to see what happens at the end of the season in terms of signings as then it should make things clear if we are going to persist with this new solid defensive setup OR gradually adapt towards more of an expansive one.
Click to expand...
It’s not as black and white as to have Keane or Mina or both of them in the team we have to play on the edge of our penalty box. They’re both good penalty box defenders, of course and they’ll never be the quickest but you’re doing them a disservice.

We will play higher up than we’re playing at the moment, when our better players come back and we can retain possession for longer than we have been recently. Team moves up the pitch naturally when you’ve got possession of the ball for a period of time attacking or in the opponents half.

For me, the stand out problem with the centre backs playing higher up the pitch in recent years has been the lack of pressure on the ball from our midfield and how slow we are to get back into a defensive shape when we turn the ball over.

Midfielders like Schnederlin, Gomes, Davies, Siggi etc are a liability - turn the ball over and you have opposing teams running straight at a high back line with loads of time to pick a pass over the top, down the side, wherever they want really or just run straight at the centre backs with no protection in front of them and acres of space behind them.

The top teams you’re referring to, all win the ball back quickly when they lose possession or attempt to. They put pressure on the ball in midfield, they get back into a defensive shape quicker.

It’s more a team thing than something that can just be pinned on one particular centre back.
 
BigDuncTributeBand said:
It’s not as black and white as to have Keane or Mina or both of them in the team we have to play on the edge of our penalty box. They’re both good penalty box defenders, of course and they’ll never be the quickest but you’re doing them a disservice.

We will play higher up than we’re playing at the moment, when our better players come back and we can retain possession for longer than we have been recently. Team moves up the pitch naturally when you’ve got possession of the ball for a period of time attacking or in the opponents half.

For me, the stand out problem with the centre backs playing higher up the pitch in recent years has been the lack of pressure on the ball from our midfield and how slow we are to get back into a defensive shape when we turn the ball over.

Midfielders like Schnederlin, Gomes, Davies, Siggi etc are a liability - turn the ball over and you have opposing teams running straight at a high back line with loads of time to pick a pass over the top, down the side, wherever they want really or just run straight at the centre backs with no protection in front of them and acres of space behind them.

The top teams you’re referring to, all win the ball back quickly when they lose possession or attempt to. They put pressure on the ball in midfield, they get back into a defensive shape quicker.

It’s more a team thing than something that can just be pinned on one particular centre back.
Click to expand...

Lets say we have a group of world class midfielders and behind them Keane and Mina.

Were dominating posession (as you say) and the ball breaks to their centre back who punts the ball high and long behind our two giants.

Their forward runs past them and is through on goal.

Unless Godfrey or Holgate are switched on at full back and quicker than their forward, we concede.

Mina and Keane just done have the necessary recovery pace.

I actually dont think we need to play a high line with the current back 4 to do well.

If we managed to bring in a midfielder akin to a Pirlo 'type' then it makes it easier for us to go back to front on the deck...at the moment the forwards are isolated.
 

Zatara said:
Lets say we have a group of world class midfielders and behind them Keane and Mina.

Were dominating posession (as you say) and the ball breaks to their centre back who punts the ball high and long behind our two giants.

Their forward runs past them and is through on goal.

Unless Godfrey or Holgate are switched on at full back and quicker than their forward, we concede.

Mina and Keane just done have the necessary recovery pace.

I actually dont think we need to play a high line with the current back 4 to do well.

If we managed to bring in a midfielder akin to a Pirlo 'type' then it makes it easier for us to go back to front on the deck...at the moment the forwards are isolated.
Click to expand...
Its not a choice between having a defensive line permanently camped on the edge of our own penalty box or pushing up to permanently play on the half way line.

I think the current arrangement has been more forced on Carlo due to necessity and how he viewed the best way to get results with the players available - I don’t think he’s planning on keeping us set up so deep when our better midfield/forward options become available again.

Ultimately it’s about getting the right balance between attacking and defending as a team. As you say, although we’ve been solid recently we haven’t had the right balance to support the attackers like DCL.

I don’t think we’ve had that balance for a long time and it’s more than just pinning it on the centre backs and saying getting a quick centre back in would cure all. With the midfielders and shape we’ve had over recent years even quick centre backs would struggle when a team is that wide open in transition. Jagielka wasn’t slow for example but stick him in a Roberto Martinez team where the defence were left to fend for themselves and we still shipped bucketloads.

When our better players come back we will play a higher back line - maybe not as high as you’d like but it will be higher than currently.
 
I couldn't care less how deep we defend, even with opposing teams have free kicks we are standing on the 6 yard line. It looks terrible and logic says that any flick on will result in a near goal for the opposition, but it's working, Carlo has identified the best system for defending, if it means sitting deep and soaking up prrssure, then so be it. Wolves,Chelsea, Sheffield United,Leicester and Arsenal haven't even managed a shot on target during the 2nd half of games. Keane and Mina have been sensational in this system, aerial dominance and in Keane's case excellent on the ball, often starting attacks with his long sweeping balls from defense. He is clearly our best centre back, this isn't even disbutable Zat. If premier league team of season was picked now, Fofana and Keane may well be front runners to get into the team.
 
Zatara said:
Lets say we have a group of world class midfielders and behind them Keane and Mina.

Were dominating posession (as you say) and the ball breaks to their centre back who punts the ball high and long behind our two giants.

Their forward runs past them and is through on goal.

Unless Godfrey or Holgate are switched on at full back and quicker than their forward, we concede.

Mina and Keane just done have the necessary recovery pace.

I actually dont think we need to play a high line with the current back 4 to do well.

If we managed to bring in a midfielder akin to a Pirlo 'type' then it makes it easier for us to go back to front on the deck...at the moment the forwards are isolated.
Click to expand...


Just... Stop
 


Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join Grand Old Team to get involved in the Everton discussion. Signing up is quick, easy, and completely free.

Register
Back
Top