New Everton Stadium

[Jimishorts]

All this jibber jabber where’s @Dymak when you need some salient financial advice.

 

[GwladysBlue]

I reckon we’ll push the capacity up to around 54,000/55,000 by the time it opens.

It’s what quite a few clubs have done during construction.

Can’t think of the figures off the top of my head but Spurs definitely upped their capacity by about 800 seats, if not more.

@RobSpurs will obviously be able to correct me on this.

 

[Bluestar]

Not really. The original plans revealed at St Lukes were extremely similar and were for 60000. The plans have in essence been scaled back. Either the club are not confident in the fan base or it was a financial decision. I've always said the club should be bold and be ambitious the stadium design is fantastic just short on capacity. We will fill this BMD when we move there no doubt about it.

Overhanging stands etc, fundamental change,

 

[Tom Hughes]

The 60k option was based upon us getting the commonwealth games and would've been part funded by government by various enabling developments, with an East west configuration. The current proposals have come about based on the club funding the entire project across a more constrained North-South format.

Of course, safe standing may allow this design to be expanded in capacity terms if a greater ratio of 1:1 is ever allowed.

 

[degsy]

I think opening day season 21/22 will have a substantial number of fans in the ground never mind three or four years down the line.

Time will tell

 

[Kever10]

Stone Cross you mean "Stonebridge Cross" in Gillmoss/Croxteth. No that's long gone we focused on BMD.

The footprint you say, but it's the same footprint that was presented at St Lukes. For 60,000 seats.

Sorry you don't get the capacity debate, it's equally split a lot of fans. I just think the club has been too cautious. You can't be too critical it's a huge undertaking a huge spend. I always felt it was an opportunity for us to show everyone we ARE a big club building a ground second only to maybe United. It's immediately about 7th or 8th biggest stadium a little less ambitious. On a par with the Barcodes. I would like to think we can build more as we go like Citeh but I don't think we will.

The current capacity is 39,572.

The new capacity will be 52,888.

That's an increase of 13,316, which is slightly more than 1/3 of our current capacity, and will be slightly under 1/4 of the new stadium.

If the new capacity was 60,000, that would be an increase of 20,428, which would be more than 50% of the current capacity added on.

Financially, the current ground is filled, you are right. But I have barely had an increase in my season ticket price in over 10 years. Largely down to Everton trying to remain fair to fans in 1 of the poorer areas of the country, and in face of escalating costs of watching football, but also, in part due to the fact that the facilities do not warrant the steep hikes that others have faced. I expect some of that will change in the new ground, despite efforts to keep costs affordable. It is inevitable that the costs will go up, even if that's 10-20% and that could impact the viability of selling 60,000 seats on a regular basis, especially when you consider, as the experts all agree, that the last 10,000 seats are the most expensive seats to build.

I'm sure there will be an upturn in attendances, there always is with any new fad, whether it be a good season, a young Wayne Rooney coming through, a promise of new investment, etc. I've seen plenty of new season ticket holders come for a year and then not come back in the 25 years I've had mine. And maybe we could fill 60,000 a few times a year. But the occasions that we can't, those extra 10,000 seats become very noticeable.

It's sustainable growth, not pie in the sky, Field of Dreams, optimism, and it is 13,000 extra fans at a higher rate than we will ever have had staying where we are.

As has been pointed out, we opted for the premium site over the generic ones. We opted for the expensive option, the landmark, that cost us more than the entire cost of the Kirby/Tesco project to lease the land and conduct studies, and a substantial amount more to fill in a Dock before we even start building. Because we wanted to build something that made people say wow. And that's what Everton should always be about.

I was similar to yourself to begin with, a little underwhelmed at the single tier structure all the way round. The lack of one undisputed "Main stand". The car park blocking the view of the river (thankfully that was revised).

But after seeing the overlay footprint of just how much bigger, taller and steeper it will be to Goodison, while still remaining as close to the pitch as possible, something none of the new builds seem to have, I started to change my mind. I started to image how hostile and aggressive Goodison could be, and imagined how intimidating BMD could be, to see this giant wall of angry Evertonians towering above the pitch, and not a single obstructed view in the whole place.

1 final bit of context. The 13,316 increase in capacity, Is more than the entire capacity of the Echo arena (11,000) on top of a packed Goodison. From a logistical point of view, its already going to be mental having that many people there every weekend. I'm sure that also was a factor.

But just try and think of the positives. When we fill it, it will be a sight to behold.

 

[Davideeyore]

The 60k option was based upon us getting the commonwealth games and would've been part funded by government by various enabling developments, with an East west configuration. The current proposals have come about based on the club funding the entire project across a more constrained North-South format.

Of course, safe standing may allow this design to be expanded in capacity terms if a greater ratio of 1:1 is ever allowed.

You're wrong. See the https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/dan-meis-workshop.102981/page-10 and subsequent pages.

The plans are there on he same north south plan for 60,000. Nothing to do with the CG.

 

[Davideeyore]

The current capacity is 39,572.
The new capacity will be 52,888.

That's an increase of 13,316, which is slightly more than 1/3 of our current capacity, and will be slightly under 1/4 of the new stadium.

If the new capacity was 60,000, that would be an increase of 20,428, which would be more than 50% of the current capacity added on.

Financially, the current ground is filled, you are right. But I have barely had an increase in my season ticket price in over 10 years. Largely down to Everton trying to remain fair to fans in 1 of the poorer areas of the country, and in face of escalating costs of watching football, but also, in part due to the fact that the facilities do not warrant the steep hikes that others have faced. I expect some of that will change in the new ground, despite efforts to keep costs affordable. It is inevitable that the costs will go up, even if that's 10-20% and that could impact the viability of selling 60,000 seats on a regular basis, especially when you consider, as the experts all agree, that the last 10,000 seats are the most expensive seats to build.

It's sustainable growth, not pie in the sky, Field of Dreams, optimism, and it is 13,000 extra fans at a higher rate than we will ever have had staying where we are.
1 final bit of context. The 13,316 increase in capacity, Is more than the entire capacity of the Echo arena (11,000) on top of a packed Goodison. From a logistical point of view, its already going to be mental having that many people there every weekend. I'm sure that also was a factor.

I hate this argument, about the current capacity v the new capacity.

Goodison is limited this is one of the reasons for the move. On a par with Arsenal they were 38000 at Highbury. Tottenham was even less at 36000. They didn't go, to say "50k. That's a big jump, that'll do".

The ticket prices that you refer is a factor but fans will pay the prices, especially if it's low ticket prices. It's a balance keeping tickets affordable I can't afford a season ticket myself. The club does need to increase revenue to catch up the other 'big' clubs matchday revenue. This and the new ground. But to have £x matchday income you will have a better range of cheaper tickets with a 60,000 stadium than a 50,000 stadium. It's just maths.

I have said before and will say again, if Goodison was 52000 now (covid apart) we'd fill it. On present demand. When the club moves there is the new stadium bounce, the waterfront attraction and tourists and hopefully some success bringing in more fans. We have allow for growth. The so called big clubs are well ahead of us we're playing catch up. The stadium is one way to force ourselves higher up a level.

 

[hallamblue]

I hate this argument, about the current capacity v the new capacity.

Goodison is limited this is one of the reasons for the move. On a par with Arsenal they were 38000 at Highbury. Tottenham was even less at 36000. They didn't go, to say "50k. That's a big jump, that'll do".

The ticket prices that you refer is a factor but fans will pay the prices, especially if it's low ticket prices. It's a balance keeping tickets affordable I can't afford a season ticket myself. The club does need to increase revenue to catch up the other 'big' clubs matchday revenue. This and the new ground. But to have £x matchday income you will have a better range of cheaper tickets with a 60,000 stadium than a 50,000 stadium. It's just maths.

I have said before and will say again, if Goodison was 52000 now (covid apart) we'd fill it. On present demand. When the club moves there is the new stadium bounce, the waterfront attraction and tourists and hopefully some success bringing in more fans. We have allow for growth. The so called big clubs are well ahead of us we're playing catch up. The stadium is one way to force ourselves higher up a level.

Man City are the most successful club in the country, playing out of the 3rd biggest City, and they can't sell 52,000 tickets. Ticket income is not as important as it used to be, unless you're a tourist club like the rs or Man Utd.

 

[GwladysBlue]

Man City are the most successful club in the country, playing out of the 3rd biggest City, and they can't sell 52,000 tickets. Ticket income is not as important as it used to be, unless you're a tourist club like the rs or Man Utd.

Tbf, we have a bigger fan base than Man City.

There’s no way we’d have a huge empty tier of a stand in a semi final home game, for example, like they did against us in 2016.

Not to mention there was about 15k Everton fans in total that night.

 

[MickA]

By walk-ups do you mean the percentage allocation to season ticket holders versus general sale, including those on match day?

From recollection, we've got a really high percentage of season ticket holders out of our entire attendance (75%ish), which has both its pros and cons.

It's good to have a consistent base following of approximately thirty-thousand who'll attend most games, so the club only have to sell the remaining tickets.

But, personally I feel it can make the atmosphere a bit stale in the sense of complacency as new/non-regular can contribute to a better atmosphere.

It's also harder to get a ticket, which just from reading on here can annoy fans. Therefore, it'll be interesting to see if they set a similar threshold at BMD.

Yeah, as you say there's pro's and cons and with walk-ups there's also I'd expect two very different types. Those who are local, want to go as often as possible and also tourists. I'm sure the Club will want to maximise every non ST ticket sold. We have all done the capacity debate but I'm sure one thing we can all agree on is that it's better to have demand for every single ticket than a Sunderland type situation where supply outstrips demand. Be interesting how they play it out.

Its a tough one as the club is one of the best in PL for holding 'low' ST prices. I remember Carragher ranting at the time the RS were putting prices up and making the point that ST revenue, although relied upon, wasnt actually that big an income, he was comparing asking working class families for an extra £200/yr for the sake of £4m additional income (which they would pay more for a minor squad player).
The stadium will need repaid, and the current loss of income will be felt in the clubs coffers, but id be disappointed if ST prices jump 40-50%, especially if it means fans were being priced out.

I'm expecting a similar increase. Only way I thought we wouldn't is if we had a lot more corporate offerings and additional revenue streams like @Tom Hughes mentioned. For me personally, of the indicative tiers they released I like the general idea of the Bronze package (all I really want is a decent place to have a drink before and afterwards) but the cost is still too high. I hope they have a consultative process for ticketing.

The 60k option was based upon us getting the commonwealth games and would've been part funded by government by various enabling developments, with an East west configuration. The current proposals have come about based on the club funding the entire project across a more constrained North-South format.

Of course, safe standing may allow this design to be expanded in capacity terms if a greater ratio of 1:1 is ever allowed.

I think safe standing at 1:1.8 is the only possible option for expansion and one they've banked on. Just cannot see how the design can incorporate expansion unless you re-engineer the entire roof and buy air space above Nelson and Sandon.

 

[Davideeyore]

Tbf, we have a bigger fan base than Man City.

There’s no way we’d have a huge empty tier of a stand in a semi final home game, for example, like they did against us in 2016.

Spot on. If we were at their level in a new stadium it would a lock out every week.

Tbf, though, being a season ticket holder in the early 90's we had bad attendances and of course in 83 very low too.

Unless Covid has in the long term wiped out large crowds & also economically reduces fans spending we shouldn't be expecting to return to half full stadiums any time soon.

 

[PhilM]

I hate this argument, about the current capacity v the new capacity.

Goodison is limited this is one of the reasons for the move. On a par with Arsenal they were 38000 at Highbury. Tottenham was even less at 36000. They didn't go, to say "50k. That's a big jump, that'll do".

The ticket prices that you refer is a factor but fans will pay the prices, especially if it's low ticket prices. It's a balance keeping tickets affordable I can't afford a season ticket myself. The club does need to increase revenue to catch up the other 'big' clubs matchday revenue. This and the new ground. But to have £x matchday income you will have a better range of cheaper tickets with a 60,000 stadium than a 50,000 stadium. It's just maths.

I have said before and will say again, if Goodison was 52000 now (covid apart) we'd fill it. On present demand. When the club moves there is the new stadium bounce, the waterfront attraction and tourists and hopefully some success bringing in more fans. We have allow for growth. The so called big clubs are well ahead of us we're playing catch up. The stadium is one way to force ourselves higher up a level.

There's a glaring difference between the location of both Arsenal and Tottenham before objectively considering other factors - e.g. it's false equivalence.

To the second point, adding more seats with a lower sale value to fill them is not good business, let alone maths. Each seat will have an overall build cost.

It has been noted on here previously (a fair few times) that as certain attendance thresholds are met the cost of the additional seating rises quite significantly.

For example, the outlay of the additional eight-thousand seats will disproportionately (per-seat) be more expensive than the last ten thousand and so on...

So the percentage of the build cost to add those seats will be quite considerable, yet people then expect the club to reduce prices seat prices to fill them.

In layman's terms, it simply isn't good business sense: make more seats; cost lots more money; sell them at lower price to fill them; less financial return.

While in an ideal world I'd like the club to have considered a larger attendance, we have to trust that their models suggest this is the safest long-term option.

We might fill Goodison now if it were 52,000, but would we fill it when there's a ticket increase? You, yourself, said you can't currently afford a season ticket.

When, not if, prices rise I am sure there'll be more people who may not be able to afford it, while making it more unaffordable to those who currently can't go.

 

[Jacko93]

The 60k option was based upon us getting the commonwealth games and would've been part funded by government by various enabling developments, with an East west configuration. The current proposals have come about based on the club funding the entire project across a more constrained North-South format.

Of course, safe standing may allow this design to be expanded in capacity terms if a greater ratio of 1:1 is ever allowed.

The orientation of the ground is based upon the Sun path, and the position of premium seating and broadcast personnel/equipment, nothing to do with capacities. It was never going to be an east/west configuration.

Also, nothing was ever dependent on any CG bid.

 

[Yarrgh]

Disease experts warn Covid mutants could make vaccines useless within a year

Two thirds of experts thought that the current batch of jabs currently going into millions of arms in the UK will become redundant in 12 months or less.

www.google.com

It’s a good job that everyone accepts that lockdowns will soon be a thing of the past, never to be seen again, otherwise their potential effect on stadium attendance could be a salient consideration.

Drink!