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New Everton Stadium

PhilM said:
You’d hope so, and I’m fairly confident there will be investment. However, Peel themselves said that Liverpool Waters is likely a 50 year project.

It may not be as quick as some would hope or predict, and there’ll be refinements of the plans as they go along, but it will be built eventually.
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I worked on the Canal Link project and we had to co-ordinate with Peels Masterplan for Liverpool Waters back then, that was approaching 20 years or so ago now. I recall it being a 30 year Masterplan at the time which would have been lots of hi-rise development to rival New York, Shanghai, Dubai etc.

They've made multiple changes to the Masterplan since then but not a great deal of progress on anything much further than Princes Dock. The original proposals were much more spectaculer then the current offering.

Peel would have had ZERO interest in a stadium being part of the Masterplan back then but times change. I expect they probably hoped they'd be 2/3rds of the way through the Masterplan by now! They will definitely see it as an enabler now for the rest of the development and will be hoping it can provide a boost.
 
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Tom Hughes said:
Can't find my survey doc for kemlyn Rd at the mo.... it was about 5 computers ago, so hardly surprising.

However, scaling off photocopied drawings, I make the back row tread approx 23.2m above pavement.... which makes it approx 21m above pitch. Someone, might have more accurate numbers.

Our Top Balcony rear row is 82.35ft above datum, which equates to 25.1m, or just under 25m above pitch. Hope that helps for your comparison.
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That’s great thanks, what’s the back row of BMD from pitch level?
 
AndyRJ said:
I worked on the Canal Link project and we had to co-ordinate with Peels Masterplan for Liverpool Waters back then, that was approaching 20 years or so ago now. I recall it being a 30 year Masterplan at the time which would have been lots of hi-rise development to rival New York, Shanghai, Dubai etc.

They've made multiple changes to the Masterplan since then but not a great deal of progress on anything much further than Princes Dock. The original proposals were much more spectaculer then the current offering.

Peel would have had ZERO interest in a stadium being part of the Masterplan back then but times change. I expect they probably hoped they'd be 2/3rds of the way through the Masterplan by now! They will definitely see it as an enabler now for the rest of the development and will be hoping it can provide a boost.
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You're quite right it was a 30 year plan and it's hardly got going since, plus as you said the original proposals were a lot more spectacular. I don't know who or what is to blame, be it Peel, Liverpool City Council planning, the WHS nonsense or just the financial climate post Brexit, Covid and Ukraine, but the 'current plans'
are truly watered down. Hardly worthy. Perhaps it's a good thing that nothing has been developed yet, because who knows there may be an upturn. It would be nice if there was a few high rise buildings or a Salford / Media City type build (nevermind skyscrapers we should be so lucky). We're probably going to have to wait many years. Meanwhile periphery developments along the dock road etc will be needed to help with our stadium bedding in.
 
Dougie said:
The kings dock looked fantastic. But I still don’t know how it would have worked. The arena there currently holds 10,000 and when it’s full, the traffic and pedestrians is a nightmare. Times that by more than 5 it would have been chaos. Yeah would have had transport links but still would have been a major issue on a match day. Even worse on Saturday with people going the shops in town.
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Let's not open that tin of worms again, but suffice it to say the city centre's public transport deals with a far bigger number of commuters 5 days and 5 evenings a week. I suspect concert goers are a different animal to match goers and lots probably come from further afield. But, as I say, let's not waste our breath on Kings Dock, Kirkby, or even redeveloping Goodison. Those things didn't happen. Let's focus on our marvellous new stadium.
 
BullensRoad said:
As much as I want the stadium to be as close to the city centre as possible. I think having it at Clarence would have been a bad idea.

Can't imagine investors wanting to build office and residential either side of a football stadium. BMD dock was the best decision (being next to the sewage works) and starts bringing life to the neglected northern docks.

Just read Clarence was infilled to build a power station which got knocked down decades ago. Sad they didn't think to rebuild or repurpose the power station for something else? At least with our construction it can be turned back to the dock with the existing wall (hopefully they remember in 100 or so years time).

In an alternate history we would have this columns instead of the turrets:

View attachment 220990
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There's lots of examples of new stadia/stands attracting major new residential/commercial developments. I think the issue there was just that Peel had other plans and originally saw that dock as prime for several talls. There doesn't appear to be anything there with solid plans except perhaps the central park scheme, which is hardly the money spinner they were anticipating. They could've had both on site.
 

Peel’s original plans were effectively torpedoed by the early expression of strong UNESCO/Heritage concerns. Given the hoops we had to jump through and still could not get UNESCO on Board you can see how the mini Manhattan was never going to happen. The very prospect of what we faced has already scared away many developers and financiers for other potential projects as they did not want interminable processes, massive negative publicity and reputational damage.

BMD could turn out to be the catalyst in more ways than one as the removal of UNESCO status ironically removes a big barrier. Developers are more used to dealing with local heritage and planning concerns and the publicity is orders of magnitude less than for a UNESCO site. I was told the loss of World Heritage site status got coverage in 120 countries. A local planning fight in a mid-sized regional city might not even make national TV/papers!

By the time we proposed BMD the city council was overtly saying they could live with out UNESCO status and so was a lot of the population, with even tourist sectors relatively optimistic. This helped limit our local fallout but so did our status. The strong local backing could only have been obtained by us or them building a new stadium. Anything else as the development that triggered loss of UNESCO status would have been massively more controversial.
 

Tom Hughes said:
I've been to the arena quite a few times and had no problems getting to or from it using public transport tbh.... I believe there were some issues when it first opened. I've always walked over the strand and straight on to a bus or into town for a few drinks. The city centre copes with well over 100k every rush hr. The strand can grind to a halt for a bit, but once the majority have crossed that's it really. Yes, 50k+ is a much bigger proposition, but summer pops, tall ships and river festivals have had similar or bigger numbers in the past. The other thing is, the difference between an arena and a football stadium is that football stadia have a more regular crowd with greater familiarity and local knowledge. That proximity to all the public transport hubs would've been a real winner... hopefully it can be replicated at BMD with a comprehensive shuttle system (and a dedicated people mover in the future).
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There is a pretty large issue with people crossing the strand in all honesty, that's straight from the Police Commissioners mouth, they haven't long been looking at methods to reduce traffic at closing time for certain events, or to add local/direct control of manned crossing systems.

As it happens, it is probably rather unsurprising that some events offer bigger challenges than others. 10K at a CBeebies concert create less issue than 10k at the darts, for example. Football wont be such an issue with a smaller percentage of inebriated individuals though

50k though, who's main route is an almost immediate crossing of the main City thoroughfare would have been an issue. At least with BMD, people will dissipate along the length of the walk so they don't all arrive en masse at 2 pedestrian crossings.
 
Jacko93 said:
There is a pretty large issue with people crossing the strand in all honesty, that's straight from the Police Commissioners mouth, they haven't long been looking at methods to reduce traffic at closing time for certain events, or to add local/direct control of manned crossing systems.

As it happens, it is probably rather unsurprising that some events offer bigger challenges than others. 10K at a CBeebies concert create less issue than 10k at the darts, for example. Football wont be such an issue with a smaller percentage of inebriated individuals though

50k though, who's main route is an almost immediate crossing of the main City thoroughfare would have been an issue. At least with BMD, people will dissipate along the length of the walk so they don't all arrive en masse at 2 pedestrian crossings.
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Pity the Merseytram scheme died on its backside. That was a massive missed opportnity for the City in my opinion and would have helped hugely with the movement of people from the waterfront.
 
Davideeyore said:
You're quite right it was a 30 year plan and it's hardly got going since, plus as you said the original proposals were a lot more spectacular. I don't know who or what is to blame, be it Peel, Liverpool City Council planning, the WHS nonsense or just the financial climate post Brexit, Covid and Ukraine, but the 'current plans'
are truly watered down. Hardly worthy. Perhaps it's a good thing that nothing has been developed yet, because who knows there may be an upturn. It would be nice if there was a few high rise buildings or a Salford / Media City type build (nevermind skyscrapers we should be so lucky). We're probably going to have to wait many years. Meanwhile periphery developments along the dock road etc will be needed to help with our stadium bedding in.
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These factors are too recent to have had a significant impact on the original Masterplan timetable. WHS status and the City Council's previous opposition to tall buildings have obviously limited Peel's original vision, but I think that they came forward too late to capitalise on the apartment building boom in the early 2000's.

Personally I am glad that the original plans have been watered down. I am not a fan of skyscrapers, I don't find them to be spectacular in any way other than sheer size, and are just not in keeping with the scale of the rest of the city. I don't share your positive view of the Salford Quays/Media City either. For me it's just another example of modern architectural mediocrity. I used to attend meetings there on a regular basis and was always happy to be on my way home because the whole ambience of the area depressed me. I expect the rump of Liverpool Waters to offer much the same vibe.
 

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