Record against Liverpool compared to the rest of the top 6

[LEONARD]

Koeman reckons yesterday's disaster was 'a real sign of progression'.

That's great then, and we can look forward to losing both of next season's derby's by only 2-1.

If we keep 'progressing', we can look forward to a derby win in 2020.

 

[brieverton]

How do you define a "winner"?

I was thinking about this earlier myself and couldn't draw much in the way of conclusions.

It seems player scouting is very enhanced and sophisticated these days but in terms of a winner what we are looking for is attitude, along with talent and commitment obviously - I'm not sure you can compile scouting reports to the level that says you can be X% sure that a prospective new signing will stand up and be counted when under pressure at the pit and similar venues. I assume Managers and DoF's conduct fairly extensive conversations and discussions with players before signing and get feedback elsewhere but to a large degree a good attitude if not a winning one is assumed and expected however real or otherwise that may be.

You can go for players with a track record of achievement but often that's not possible as the obvious ones are at bigger clubs and out of our reach anyway, unless in the relative twilight of their careers. This is what would make Rooney's return potentially worthwhile. I'm generally against the idea but if his presence for a year or two had a positive effect on the squad in the context of being around someone who has been there and done it, then it may be beneficial.

In general though, I would prefer if we looked less at bigger teams rejects, at whatever age. To me that reinforces the gap that exists between us and them.

If it is possible to identify and sign players with leadership ability, and those able to give and take a bollocking and go the extra mile, then of course I'm all for it. One thing looking at the squad that is obvious is that there is a lack of cojones for sure. But you need talent and ability too, you can't be successful without all the elements.

 

[applecrumble]

We are **** end of.

 

[DanEFC92]

Koeman reckons yesterday's disaster was 'a real sign of progression'.

That's great then, and we can look forward to losing both of next season's derby's by only 2-1.

If we keep 'progressing', we can look forward to a derby win in 2020.

I look at his post match comments as him protecting the young players that were brought in, instead of lambasting them in the media for being dogplop.

 

[JonS]

In some ways Id rather the players treat it as just another match rather than "the derby". Think we'd stand a better chance that way. All this "win it for Seamus" rubbish from Jagielka isn't the best attitude to take.

Rather than derby passion (even though there was little of that yesterday) I'd rather have cold clinical professionalism

 

[Blues Harp]

Watching Souness talking after the match about our record prompted me to do a bit of research. The reason we are so poor against Liverpool, according to Souness, is because Liverpool are better, simple as that.

Whilst its fair to accept that bar a couple of seasons, they have been better on the pitch, that doesn't really account for why we are so poor against them. We finished above them in 2012/12 and 2012/13, yet couldn't beat them in the derby.

Ironically, two of the best performances in the past 10 years, have come against arguably two of the best Liverpool teams. In 2008/9 they were genuine title contenders but we went to their place, nicked a point with a Cahill header and dumped them out of the cup in the replay at Goodison.

Again in 2013/4, they were a slip away (and Crystanbul) from winning the league. Whilst they thumped us four nil at their place, the 3-3 at Goodison was one of the best derby performances I have seen by an Everton side.

So I don't think our derby recorded can be fully explained by them being "better" than us.

Since the 2005/06 season to the present day, our record against the current top 6 in the Premier League has been as follows:

Tottenham
Won 6
Lost 9
Draw 9

Arsenal
Won 4
Lost 12
Draw 7

City
Won 11
Lost 8
Draw 5

Man Utd
Won 5
Lost 13
Draw 5

Chelsea
Won 5
Lost 10
Draw 8

Liverpool
Won 2
Lost 13
Draw 9


As the table shows, our record against the other top 6 teams, is notably better than it is against Liverpool (granted City weren't really a force until 2008).

But Chelsea, Utd and City have won Premier League titles in the past 10 years and we have over double the amount of wins against them, than we do against Liverpool.

So whilst our record against the top 6 in general isn't great (no team's is outside the top 6), our record against Liverpool is particularly shocking.

This a Liverpool, who have finished in the top four once since 2008/9 season and in two season behind us. You would expect our record against them to be second best, behind Spurs but instead it is by far the worse.

So it has to be psychological. A set of players who over the years have crumbled under the pressure of a derby match.

I can't think of one Liverpool player who let them down yesterday, not one. I can't think of one Everton player who didn't let themselves down yesterday. It has been like that for years.

So whilst they may have better players, have a higher wage bill, spent more money, the real reason why they have such a better record against us in the derby must be something else.

To say is psychological is easy, what is it psychologically that they have over us?

 

[Blues Harp]

FFS do we really need this ?? Means nothing...close thread please....

 

[chrismpw]

Watching Souness talking after the match about our record prompted me to do a bit of research. The reason we are so poor against Liverpool, according to Souness, is because Liverpool are better, simple as that.

Whilst its fair to accept that bar a couple of seasons, they have been better on the pitch, that doesn't really account for why we are so poor against them. We finished above them in 2012/12 and 2012/13, yet couldn't beat them in the derby.

Ironically, two of the best performances in the past 10 years, have come against arguably two of the best Liverpool teams. In 2008/9 they were genuine title contenders but we went to their place, nicked a point with a Cahill header and dumped them out of the cup in the replay at Goodison.

Again in 2013/4, they were a slip away (and Crystanbul) from winning the league. Whilst they thumped us four nil at their place, the 3-3 at Goodison was one of the best derby performances I have seen by an Everton side.

So I don't think our derby recorded can be fully explained by them being "better" than us.

Since the 2005/06 season to the present day, our record against the current top 6 in the Premier League has been as follows:

Tottenham
Won 6
Lost 9
Draw 9

Arsenal
Won 4
Lost 12
Draw 7

City
Won 11
Lost 8
Draw 5

Man Utd
Won 5
Lost 13
Draw 5

Chelsea
Won 5
Lost 10
Draw 8

Liverpool
Won 2
Lost 13
Draw 9


As the table shows, our record against the other top 6 teams, is notably better than it is against Liverpool (granted City weren't really a force until 2008).

But Chelsea, Utd and City have won Premier League titles in the past 10 years and we have over double the amount of wins against them, than we do against Liverpool.

So whilst our record against the top 6 in general isn't great (no team's is outside the top 6), our record against Liverpool is particularly shocking.

This a Liverpool, who have finished in the top four once since 2008/9 season and in two season behind us. You would expect our record against them to be second best, behind Spurs but instead it is by far the worse.

So it has to be psychological. A set of players who over the years have crumbled under the pressure of a derby match.

I can't think of one Liverpool player who let them down yesterday, not one. I can't think of one Everton player who didn't let themselves down yesterday. It has been like that for years.

So whilst they may have better players, have a higher wage bill, spent more money, the real reason why they have such a better record against us in the derby must be something else.

To say is psychological is easy, what is it psychologically that they have over us?

Good analysis.
But have you forgotten that they have a pact with the devil?

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

What the OP is overlooking is the other top six teams are not playing Everton in a derby, they aren't up for it like Liverpool are. The others treat Everton like midtable opposition that we are, and they can sometimes slip up for doing so. The RS meanwhile never have such complacency...what with it being a derby. Therefore of the top six only the RS match us for workrate and desire, and with their greater quality that pushes them over the top.

We have never had better quality players than them in my lifetime. They have had a succession of Owen, Torres, Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho and Mane as their attacking players. We have had Bent, Beattie, Johnson, Osman. They have had Gerrard in midfield supplying the ammunition for most of that time. We had Phil Neville stinking out the place. They had Xabi Alonso pulling the strings, we had Arteta. If you are constantly comng up against a downgrade chances are you are going to do better. Davy Weir vs Owen is asking for the inevitable, Jagielka up against Suarez...no-one can be surprised at what follows. Jags is as committed as anyone, but you stick him up against an infinitely more talented player there ain't a damn thing he can do but suffer, as he routinely did.

We match them for effort (often overdo it out of frustration at how the game is panning out and become wreckless), what we lack is quality.

 

[summerisle]

Not a pretty picture.

 

[Ernie]

What the OP is overlooking is the other top six teams are not playing Everton in a derby, they aren't up for it like Liverpool are. The others treat Everton like midtable opposition that we are, and they can sometimes slip up for doing so. The RS meanwhile never have such complacency...what with it being a derby. Therefore of the top six only the RS match us for workrate and desire, and with their greater quality that pushes them over the top.

We have never had better quality players than them in my lifetime. They have had a succession of Owen, Torres, Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho and Mane as their attacking players. We have had Bent, Beattie, Johnson, Osman. They have had Gerrard in midfield supplying the ammunition for most of that time. We had Phil Neville stinking out the place. They had Xabi Alonso pulling the strings, we had Arteta. If you are constantly comng up against a downgrade chances are you are going to do better. Davy Weir vs Owen is asking for the inevitable, Jagielka up against Suarez...no-one can be surprised at what follows. Jags is as committed as anyone, but you stick him up against an infinitely more talented player there ain't a damn thing he can do but suffer, as he routinely did.

We match them for effort (often overdo it out of frustration at how the game is panning out and become wreckless), what we lack is quality.

They haven't had to get out of first gear in the last 4/5 derbys

The worst thing about this weekend is the RS lads I know aren't even gloating over the result, they are so used to having us off its the norm

 

[4737carlin]

I thought the whole point of the takeover was so we can bridge that gap. It is not working out that way though and we'll be waiting a long time for some facility led squad investment that hands us cash...and even then it wont be massive cash.

In short: we're miles off...simply miles off.

We are miles away from any of the top 6 sides, but right now all we seem to be able to do is turn the recognised top 6 into a top 7 but still not be a serious contender to push on further. We seem to be hoping Arsenal or Liverpool would go pear shaped or even United so we can by pass them but it's not going to happen.
Without Moshiri we had no chance at all of doing anything but standing still, running the risk of another club over taking us with investment. If Newcastle or West Ham would of got the right people to come, or Doug would of left Villa and sold to a decent investor any of those sides could of leaped over us while Kenwright was no1 but at least now we can be sure everyone below us is stuck behind us and we can focus 100% on processing, something we seem to be doing, we just have to try and do it at a faster rate then everyone else.

 

[ilikecheese]

Not a pretty picture.

Jesus Christ that is awful. 91% chance of not winning...death is slightly more certain.

Tuesday can't be over fast enough.

 

[MikeH72]

Not a pretty picture.

Haven't won at City since 2010 or Spurs since 2008 either. Two more records growing there.

 

[davek]

We are miles away from any of the top 6 sides, but right now all we seem to be able to do is turn the recognised top 6 into a top 7 but still not be a serious contender to push on further. We seem to be hoping Arsenal or Liverpool would go pear shaped or even United so we can by pass them but it's not going to happen.
Without Moshiri we had no chance at all of doing anything but standing still, running the risk of another club over taking us with investment. If Newcastle or West Ham would of got the right people to come, or Doug would of left Villa and sold to a decent investor any of those sides could of leaped over us while Kenwright was no1 but at least now we can be sure everyone below us is stuck behind us and we can focus 100% on processing, something we seem to be doing, we just have to try and do it at a faster rate then everyone else.

Being able to be stuck at 7th is no consolation at all. Is that all the Moshiri impact is? Stay 7th?

It's the biggest let down imaginable. Here we are over 12 months into the new regime and our squad is still weak in comparison with all those above us and we have a half promise in place that the club can owe all kinds of institutions £350M in order to self finance a stadium some time in the future.

As said before: look what he's actually done, not the hundreds of thousands of fine words that goes before this feller trying to seduce everyone into believing he's led a substantial takeover.