2024/25 Sean Dyche

[catcherintherye]

Forest just won at anfield, palace have won at city over the years ,
Bournemouth won 3-0 at utd last season. Im there’s plenty of others.

So you don’t care that we have a manager who’s not trying to win some games, his whole remit is go away as set up for a point, maybe we a few 1-0’s get a few draws,
Win 6 home games against the bottom 10, 2 agaisnt the 10 and its job done you finish 16th to 12th. And that’s the same every season. But you also probably think give dyche a few more years and some money and his mentality will change, well it won’t and it’s not a sign of progress

In all fairness, didn't we defeat Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle etc at home?

 

[Lanolin]

The other thing to say, was prior to think season we were very good when taking the lead. We only lost 3 games (city/West Ham/Arsenal) when taking the league. At one point were were average like 2.5 points per game when we scored first.

Bournemouth was a total debacle, and a team shouldn't fall away like that. But our issue is we are very bad when we go behind, and don't go ahead often enough.

I think Dyche's philosophy is, if its working, don't change it. And I do have sympathy with that view, I do wonder how many managers add much value with changes.

I think we’ve all seen games under different managers where you’re thinking ‘player x is really struggling now, we need to make a change’ or ‘it’s clear we need an extra man in midfield now’ etc and the criticism when that happens and it causes us a problem is fair enough. The issue is that people build these alternative realities in their heads where a substitution - quite often literally any substitution - would definitely have led to things getting better and a different end result when there’s precious little evidence to back it up. With dyche it’s like the sub thing has just taken on a life of its own, with people now just criticising whatever subs they do or don’t make regardless of the way they work out.

 

[Marius57]

I think we’ve all seen games under different managers where you’re thinking ‘player x is really struggling now, we need to make a change’ or ‘it’s clear we need an extra man in midfield now’ etc and the criticism when that happens and it causes us a problem is fair enough. The issue is that people build these alternative realities in their heads where a substitution - quite often literally any substitution - would definitely have led to things getting better and a different end result when there’s precious little evidence to back it up. With dyche it’s like the sub thing has just taken on a life of its own, with people now just criticising whatever subs they do or don’t make regardless of the way they work out.

He has been getting criticised for his subs since he arrived. It’s not new.

And not making subs is genuinely an approach he believes in. He has done interviews about it. He believes he picks the best 11 to win that game and barring injury, doesn’t like to meddle. Despite other teams now being able to change half a team mid game so bringing on 5 fresh players, he hasn’t adapted to the change in rules.

It was talked about heavily during last season when he made very limited amounts of them as well.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I think we’ve all seen games under different managers where you’re thinking ‘player x is really struggling now, we need to make a change’ or ‘it’s clear we need an extra man in midfield now’ etc and the criticism when that happens and it causes us a problem is fair enough. The issue is that people build these alternative realities in their heads where a substitution - quite often literally any substitution - would definitely have led to things getting better and a different end result when there’s precious little evidence to back it up. With dyche it’s like the sub thing has just taken on a life of its own, with people now just criticising whatever subs they do or don’t make regardless of the way they work out.

There’s also quite simply a lot of information that football managers know that fans don’t. I can’t remember a single Everton manager that made subs at the time I would like them to be made. All of them seem to make them much later than I would want. As a whole across all managers a lot of them tend to make subs around the hour mark, a lot of them seemingly avoid subbing players on early yellow cards, a lot of them avoid subbing CBs at all unless injured, most of them don’t like making multiple subs at once unless they’re a few goals down, and a lot of them make subs in the last few minutes even if they’re chasing a game and it cuts into their own time. It seems illogical to fans but if they’re all doing it all that can be drawn from that is there must be a reason and they must have access to information fans don’t have as to when the right time to make subs is.

 

[Lanolin]

He has been getting criticised for his subs since he arrived. It’s not new.

And not making subs is genuinely an approach he believes in. He has done interviews about it. He believes he picks the best 11 to win that game and barring injury, doesn’t like to meddle. Despite other teams now being able to change half a team mid game so bringing on 5 fresh players, he hasn’t adapted to the change in rules.

It was talked about heavily during last season when he made very limited amounts of them as well.

I didn’t suggest anything that needed you to clarify any of that?

 

[Saint Domingo]

In all fairness, didn't we defeat Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle etc at home?

It’s a question of consistency. For a long time people parroted our record at Anfield of not winning but actually when you looked at the results there were a lot of draws in there which are actually poor results for Liverpool and often important points for us in games you know Liverpool are motivated for. Someone like Palace however will lose at Anfield multiple times in a row for years on end then because they win once when they’re held up as an example of ‘going for it’.

If Rosicky’s shot had deflected off Lucas Neil and gone over the bar then Moyes would have won away at Arsenal with an absolutely brilliant display but because it deflects in in the final minute he apparently played not to win. Martinez won at Old Trafford with a far worse performance because Rooney and Fellaini couldn’t hit a barn door that night. One of the worst displays I’ve ever seen under Koeman was minutes away from winning at Old Trafford, whereas one of our best away performances at Anfield was the Pickford derby under Silva when we could have been a few ahead against a prime Klopp Liverpool.

Quite simply I’d rather beat those three teams at home and get 9 points than fluke an away win at one of these grounds to break a stat but end up with less points.

 

[Marius57]

I didn’t suggest anything that needed you to clarify any of that?

Ah, I forgot this isn’t a public forum where people cant respond to others

But I was pointing out that it’s not a new thing people criticising his subs based off you commenting the below:

With dyche it’s like the sub thing has just taken on a life of its own, with people now just criticising whatever subs they do or don’t make regardless of the way they work out.

 

[Simon Buttle]

Ah, I forgot this isn’t a public forum where people cant respond to others

But I was pointing out that it’s not a new thing people criticising his subs based off you commenting the below:

With dyche it’s like the sub thing has just taken on a life of its own, with people now just criticising whatever subs they do or don’t make regardless of the way they work out.

A number of Burnley fans came on here when he first signed warning that his biggest weakness was in game management and substitutions.

 

[Lanolin]

Ah, I forgot this isn’t a public forum where people cantrespond to others

But I was pointing out that it’s not a new thing people criticising his subs based off you commenting the below:

With dyche it’s like the sub thing has just taken on a life of its own, with people now just criticising whatever subs they do or don’t make regardless of the way they work out.

No sorry I wasn’t saying you couldn’t reply, I just thought you might have misunderstood my point because your response didn’t seem to relate to it. I’m not suggesting criticism of his subs is new, I’m saying it seems to have become a parody of itself, to the point where whatever he does or doesn’t do in that regard is criticised now, regardless of how it pans out.

 

[Marius57]

No sorry I wasn’t saying you couldn’t reply, I just thought you might have misunderstood my point because your response didn’t seem to relate to it. I’m not suggesting criticism of his subs is new, I’m saying it seems to have become a parody of itself, to the point where whatever he does or doesn’t do in that regard is criticised now, regardless of how it pans out.

Ah apologies, I clearly misinterpreted.

I thought his subs vs Newcastle were excellent. Changed the way the game was going as their midfield had walked through ours all game to that point.

It just feels like one of very few occasions I can say that though. And I think the Bournemouth game is still very much in everyone’s heads.

 

[Neiler]

There’s also quite simply a lot of information that football managers know that fans don’t. I can’t remember a single Everton manager that made subs at the time I would like them to be made. All of them seem to make them much later than I would want. As a whole across all managers a lot of them tend to make subs around the hour mark, a lot of them seemingly avoid subbing players on early yellow cards, a lot of them avoid subbing CBs at all unless injured, most of them don’t like making multiple subs at once unless they’re a few goals down, and a lot of them make subs in the last few minutes even if they’re chasing a game and it cuts into their own time. It seems illogical to fans but if they’re all doing it all that can be drawn from that is there must be a reason and they must have access to information fans don’t have as to when the right time to make subs is.

I don’t think most people realise that an awful lot of sports science goes into decisions about substitutions, it’s not just the manager and coaches standing there saying he looks tired.

I’ve been involved in elite sport teams - no where near the money PL clubs have access to.

We had five lads on laptops in the stands monitoring player data during games, through GPS everything from, red zone to injury, player load, falling energy, burst of speed, progression and regression of yards, fatiuqe or fading through a game - in fact you could escalate that to about 200 fields.

This info is fed to the manger and coaching team during a game.

I can only assume PL clubs as some of the richest in the world have more state of the art equipment and performance management on in game analytics with bigger sports science teams.

Far more goes into this then - he looks tired to me. Sports science has come in so much in the last 10-15 years.

Sports science and strength and conditioning teams really are amazing these days on a team and individual level.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

No, I don't want no sub,
A sub is a guy that can't get no love from me

 

[Lanolin]

Ah apologies, I clearly misinterpreted.

I thought his subs vs Newcastle were excellent. Changed the way the game was going as their midfield had walked through ours all game to that point.

It just feels like one of very few occasions I can say that though. And I think the Bournemouth game is still very much in everyone’s heads.

Like I said in the first post, I don’t disagree that there are legitimate frustrations at times with his subs (and numerous other things about his management). I just think at times I’ll be sat at the match and for example a bloke who’s called beto every name under the sun every time he’s played will suddenly decide that it was obvious he needed to be brought on in this game. Or it was ‘the perfect opportunity’ to bring on Dixon and Armstrong for half an hour on Saturday despite the very obvious fact that if we’d done it and it had backfired people would be saying why the hell did we do that. Or people talking about simms, gray, danjuma, lindstrom etc as if they were bound to make a massive difference if we brought them on despite them having very little in their career records to suggest they would. Saying ‘I’d have liked to see him give x or y a go’ and saying ‘he’s an absolute clown lad, Ipswich ended up having a shot on target in the last 10 minutes because of his stubborn game management’ are very different things, and I think there’s a bit too much of the latter.

 

[roy vernon]

….if he’s offered a new deal, it would indicate we’ve done very well this season.

If he's offered a new deal, it would indicate that we still have no ambition to improve.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I don’t think most people realise that an awful lot of sports science goes into decisions about substitutions, it’s not just the manager and coaches standing there saying he looks tired.

I’ve been involved in elite sport teams - no where near the money PL clubs have access to.

We had five lads on laptops in the stands monitoring player data during games, through GPS everything from, red zone to injury, player load, falling energy, burst of speed, progression and regression of yards, fatiuqe or fading through a game - in fact you could escalate that to about 200 fields.

This info is fed to the manger and coaching team during a game.

I can only assume PL clubs as some of the richest in the world have more state of the art equipment and performance management on in game analytics with bigger sports science teams.

Far more goes into this then - he looks tired to me. Sports science has come in so much in the last 10-15 years.

Sports science and strength and conditioning teams really are amazing these days on a team and individual level.

it seems obvious but it would mean accepting that Sean Dyche, and every other football manager, knows more about football and when to make a substitution than the average fan.