The downfall of the All Blacks

[Latch]

..Or how PC wrecked the AB's.
.


Herein lies the problem, (again, I feel echos of our own situation ) It isn't that mediocrity is encouraged, but it is unconciously accepted, because winning and after all, there can only be one winner, thus making everybody else LOSERS!!, you didn't lose, you just didn't win, but you tried, you took part.

Then we come to what some brave people call the Browning of New Zealand Rugby. Over the last 30 yrs there has been a massive (for here )influx of Pacific Islanders. A veritable host of Jonah Lomu's and Jerry Collinses. These likeable and laid back people have all gone through a school system that has brainwashed them and everybody else in it to believe that nobody has to try because winning doesn't matter. It's about being the best person you can be.

QUOTE]

He gives two examples, one concerning the way that schools dont encourage winning like they used to, this is true, it happens in this country as well, there are such stories every week in the papers, rightly or wrongly that is PC at work.

Then he said " Brave People "
Did he mean " Brave " as in openly saying what the majority think or " Brave" as in 'Racist' ?

In his defence, he did not state his own personal thoughts on this, he was just informing us of how people in that country view the situation concerning their national side through different eyes.

At no point did he state that he agreed with either case put across.

 

[monty]

And for people like Rob who believe I didn't read or understand what was written, why don't we have a look at the offending passage:


So:

We could have said any number of things here. Could have said "some people" but instead called them "some brave people" for speaking out. Could have complained about modern society as in the rest of the post. But instead picked on one particular thing, and that was skin colour.

Now here we are complaining about immigration to New Zealand. Not of English or Scots or Aussies or white South Africans, mind. But people coming from the Pacific Islands, who, we have already established, are a different colour.

But surely if everybody has gone through the school system, then the school system has had an effect on everybody? Ah, I see, it's had an especial effect on those Pacific Islanders because they are "likeable and laid back" unlike the white students. Bit like the Africans really, who are "friendly but not too bright" or the Irish, who are "good for the craic but a bit lazy" or any other weasel words that racists like to dress up their views with. Of course, there are stereotypes that are used in humour but the context is everything, and in this case those stereotypes were used in the context of a serious rant about the decline of society and the sporting heroes of a nation.

The point at which it really makes me wonder is the fact that the views expressed are patently complete bollocks, as Bruce quite competently illustrated in his less controversial posts. And, of course, the fact that our very own "Pacific Islander" is the one player that most of us have been praying gets back to fitness so that he can add his fire and his drive to the midfield.

Micknick, if the post had been about gay marriage affecting the motivation of the All Blacks then it would have been laughed off the forum. It makes me wonder why people feel it necessary to have a "serious discussion" about equally laughable propositions without treating them in the same way.

Atr: I replied to your PM before seeing his response, you are right accidental racism is one thing but overtly intellectaul racism is another. The tone of the post adds up to the fact the pure bred NZ rugby has been diminshed by islander upstarts who happen to be black. Would this thread have been started if those same islanders were white as the driven snow, I don't think so and his response supports the fact it was an intended post!:angry: :angry:

 

[Rob]

mountain. mole hill.

soon people won't speak at all for worry of saying something wrong.

At no point (and correct me if I'm wrong) did he say that the influx of islanders into NZ rugby has made them worse...

The man is complaining about the way we are treating our kids these days.

Monty - you have openly stated that you HATE the Japanese and the French, is this not racism? or is it just something you say on a forum?

I'm 100% with mick on this one, what you lot are doing is pathetic, the guy wants to debate a subject either debate it or shut up and get lost.

 

[Dylan]

and Dylan you are both way out of order and shot the man down for something he didn't even say.

I suggest you read the post this time and apologise.

Micknick, spot on as usual mate

So, lets just go ahead and dress it up as something somebody else thinks, post on a football forum about how the Pacific Islanders are screwing up New Zealand rugby for his FIRST post. Especially after we have the issue with Si from NSNO.

I don't think so, all a little too convenient for me.

My, oh my, I should apologize for trying to keep issues like RACE out of discussions? He said it, like it or not Rob, he said it.

 

[Rob]

Ahem. now that I have pissed people off again, lets get back on subject.

The system (as I see it) right now encourages kids from school to go into colleges for A levels, who encourage kids to go to Uni's for degrees.

What do these kids do with these degrees? go work in a call centre for barclays!
No wonder we have a shortage of trades in this country, I did Engineering when I left school, ALL of my mates bar 1 or 2 did social studies or general studies...

 

[Rob]

So, lets just go ahead and dress it up as something somebody else thinks, post on a football forum about how the Pacific Islanders are screwing up New Zealand rugby for his FIRST post. Especially after we have the issue with Si from NSNO.

I don't think so, all a little too convenient for me.

My, oh my, I should apologize for trying to keep issues like RACE out of discussions? He said it, like it or not Rob, he said it.

NSNO? thats over my head that one, the thing is, he didn't say it... he said "some people say...."

 

[chicoazul]

Youre all bad, bad racialists la.

Lets not get too para and start pointing fingers, after all its quite clear that the French are the smelliest race of people to grace God's green earth.

sits on moral high ground*

 

[atrottel]

Rob, I do not have a problem with debating social issues. I disagree with just about everything that Bruce and TX Bill have to say on most social subjects and will happily discuss things with them. One thing that I have never heard them to do, however, is say that a problem is down to the "hispanics" or the "blacks" or the "Asians" or the "Irish".

Then you say this is making mountains out of molehills and promptly go ahead and nitpick the words yourself.

For the record, and it's quoted enough in the previous posts, he said that he was going to move on to another problem with the All Blacks which was what "some brave people" referred to as the browning of NZ rugby. (Latch thinks that brave can mean a couple of things, I think it's clear it means another, but it's arguable, I suppose.) He then went on to identify that as the influx of Pacific Islanders into the team - his words, not anyone elses, however much you want to spin it and for whatever reasons.

As Dylan said earlier, if he had left it at complaining about the lack of a "winner mentality" in schools or society, nobody would have had a problem (although they may not have agreed with him). But why introduce race or immigration into it in the first place if you are not saying that that has an effect?

Finally, I accept and respect the points of view of others like Latch and micknick about what I said on this forum, even if I don't necessarily agree with them. But to be honest I think for you to go off on one given your previous history here is the height of hypocrisy.

I'm going to give it a rest here for a while and then see how I feel. I'm sure I and others will be happier that way.

 

[SuitsBlue]

As Dylan said earlier, if he had left it at complaining about the lack of a "winner mentality" in schools or society, nobody would have had a problem (although they may not have agreed with him). But why introduce race or immigration into it in the first place if you are not saying that that has an effect?

i was going to point that bit out, it does seem odd to highlight 'certain individuals' that went through the education that everyone else went through.

as for ''brave'' im puzzling that one over and over, was it said sarcatically? to infer those saying it were [Poor language removed]? was it said honestly with reference to being prepared to say something knowing full well it would upset some?

its the web and each submission is judged in the eye of the beholder.

 

[coyney]

My best mate who is from Jamaica was here while the posts were going and made a simple observation if people become to afraid of public reaction they dont change they may not speak it but they still think it, a few years ago my mate and his wife left there baby with us for a week,I took that baby to Belle vale shopping centre and the looks I got where a disgrace I at first thought it was me until my wife was holding the baby and this guy says"You are a f**8 N**loving BA***" Obviously I lost my temper and people started saying things to calm it down Now if that had not occurred I would not have known how racist some people are as being white it goes over your head because you are not looking for it But back to my mate he says in work hes treated fine but knows hes not wanted there(Prescott)but he would sooner face the racism in a constructive way than have it pushed under the carpet

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It does confuse me a little to be honest. Personally I don't think any kind of prejudice is good or warranted as it nearly always involves generalisations, which in turn are nearly always misplaced. Yet certain kinds of prejudice seem to warrant dramatic responses whilst others are ignored or tolerated.

Now I should perhaps add that I'm not talking directly of any individuals here but rather this seeming disparity of response. We've had threads recently calling the French hairy, unwashed surrender monkeys. Presumably someone can no more help being born French than they can being born black, yet I dare say if the post had singled out a group based on their colour then this would be wrong. We've had threads recently on such topics as what we hate about America. Would anyone dare post a 'what we hate about blacks?'

It seems to me that as humans we discriminate against people every day based on height, weight, nationality, religion, job, choice of football team, home town, facial features and goodness knows what else. I'm inclined to think any such remarks reflect more on the sender than the recipitent. To be honest it just seems a politically correct minefield.

We have ample laws in place to try and prevent discrimination in the workplace, might I be so bold as to suggest a slightly thicker skin on here? If the original poster was acting as accused then rise above it and try to debate the issue without resorting to discrimination. There's an oft used expression on forums "don't feed the troll". If someone is stooping the depths in their debating it doesn't mean you have to join them

 

[SuitsBlue]

Now I should perhaps add that I'm not talking directly of any individuals here but rather this seeming disparity of response. We've had threads recently calling the French hairy, unwashed surrender monkeys. Presumably someone can no more help being born French than they can being born black, yet I dare say if the post had singled out a group based on their colour then this would be wrong. We've had threads recently on such topics as what we hate about America. Would anyone dare post a 'what we hate about blacks?'

i find that somewhat confused.

some of the comments aimed at the U S of A and in some part the french are based on political and international decisions.

to compare such a subject with discrimination based on skin colour isnt entirely fair.

just my two cents.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It's all generalisation though isn't it. All x type of people are y. It makes no more sense to me to label all Americans as something based on the actions of Bush (or anyone else) than it does to label all blacks as something based on whatever perception you have of black people. All pretty messed up to me. Treat people as the individuals that they are and you can't go too far wrong.

 

[monty]

mountain. mole hill.

soon people won't speak at all for worry of saying something wrong.

At no point (and correct me if I'm wrong) did he say that the influx of islanders into NZ rugby has made them worse...

The man is complaining about the way we are treating our kids these days.

Monty - you have openly stated that you HATE the Japanese and the French, is this not racism? or is it just something you say on a forum?
I'm 100% with mick on this one, what you lot are doing is pathetic, the guy wants to debate a subject either debate it or shut up and get lost.

That is complete and utter bollocks, I said that I was brought up to hate the Japs, my family had people starved to death by the Japs, I have never said that they can't come here and I actually said that I don't hate them now, so get your fatcs right befoire jumping into your ivory tower. I recall you also saying that you hated the French, I actual quite like the southern French who treat people with respect that is why we visit there when we can......what about you?

Incidentally why covertly mention something that is not supposed to be part of the thread, [Poor language removed] if you ask me.

 

[SuitsBlue]

It's all generalisation though isn't it. All x type of people are y. It makes no more sense to me to label all Americans as something based on the actions of Bush (or anyone else) than it does to label all blacks as something based on whatever perception you have of black people. All pretty messed up to me. Treat people as the individuals that they are and you can't go too far wrong.

with regards politics, votes count, and majorities win. it isnt right to tar all with the same brush, but it can at times (politically i hasten the reinforce) contain some truth.