Would five at the back help defensively?

[Calvin]

I agree with the instructions part and we are playing a vastly different game right now, for instance, with 4 at the back. I am simply trying to point out that Doucoure is no Gundogan and neither is Onana a KDB, just as we are not Man City. If Gana or Garner commit the tactical fouls that Rodri does in a match, we'd be down to 9 people by half-time. Onana carrying the ball alone would be closed down faster than any of us can say gegenpress. Maybe Onana and Iwobi might have worked somehow. Doucoure's energy is pointless if we don't know if we are attacking or defending when he has the ball. During recent games, the only semblance of control was achieved when Gana came forward from his deeper role. Even in City's team last season Rodri, Stones, and Gundogan sometimes shared the responsibility for that deeper role. I'm just surprised with our current naivity cause Dyche's Youtube video was literally about positional play.
But what really bothers me is this usage of 'balance' to argue for 'symmetry', cause I did not understand the exclusion of DCL earlier. I get it now with the McNiel and Harrison argument, but I think, of course, this is a personal taste, I like somebody like Moyes for instance who achieved balance by putting together Baines (Wingback)/Pienaar (Playmaker) and Hibbert (Fullback)/Mirallas (Inside Forward) on the wings. And this is also something Dyche may need to improve on, as you said with players and their natural game and such. You cannot imagine my disappointment when the combination of Myko/McNiel and Coleman/Iwobi regurgitated such awkward and cookie-cutter performances.
Finally, my opinion is that our strongest starting 11 when fit into any shape should include DCL doing DCL things and not Doucoure doing Doucoure things. I'm not sold on the whole 3 at the back until our tactics and people improve.

A team doesn’t need to be symmetrical to be balanced. It’s not common but the Scotland team isn’t symmetrical but it’s balanced. So that is why I use “balanced” rather than “symmetrical”
The exclusion of DCL is mainly down to his injury record. I think he’s a very good player when fit. I’d pick Beto ahead of DCL if both were available. From the brief time I’ve seen Beto I’d say that DCL was a bit better technically than Beto, but Beto looks stronger and more robust than DCL.
I’m not saying Everton can play like Man City, or should try to emulate them. Everton don’t have the players like Stones, Rodri etc who can rotate positions in the midfield, with the possible exception of Onana. But Everton at this moment aren’t trying to compete with Man City, Arsenal etc. it’s teams like Wolves, Luton, Sheffield Utd that Everton need to beat, teams also with limited ability.
Doucoure needs replaced but until he is or Dele Alli makes a full recovery and is available to play then there’s not much choice. Simple instruction to Garner and Gana to always try and keep behind Onana and Doucoure and hold the shape whether attacking or defending.
I wouldn’t play DCL and Beto together for a number of reasons, what if one gets injured? You’re back to having 1 CF with Chermiti on the bench and I think that they might try to make the same runs, occupy the same areas.
Anyway after the international break and Dyche can put out his strongest 11, if performances and results don’t begin to improve, he will need to think about a change in formation/tactics.

 

[Walter Ego]

It’ll be 442 as soon as Dom is fit. It’s coming back in fashion and Dyche is obviously a fan. I like 442

 

[msb]

5 at the back, 5 in midfield and 5 up front would still see us struggle to be honest.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Nope for the most part it the midfield not being able to fill in.

 

[overkill]

Garner?

No he's not a 6, or he hasn't shown that's his role yet.

 

[siddharth]

A team doesn’t need to be symmetrical to be balanced. It’s not common but the Scotland team isn’t symmetrical but it’s balanced. So that is why I use “balanced” rather than “symmetrical”
The exclusion of DCL is mainly down to his injury record. I think he’s a very good player when fit. I’d pick Beto ahead of DCL if both were available. From the brief time I’ve seen Beto I’d say that DCL was a bit better technically than Beto, but Beto looks stronger and more robust than DCL.
I’m not saying Everton can play like Man City, or should try to emulate them. Everton don’t have the players like Stones, Rodri etc who can rotate positions in the midfield, with the possible exception of Onana. But Everton at this moment aren’t trying to compete with Man City, Arsenal etc. it’s teams like Wolves, Luton, Sheffield Utd that Everton need to beat, teams also with limited ability.
Doucoure needs replaced but until he is or Dele Alli makes a full recovery and is available to play then there’s not much choice. Simple instruction to Garner and Gana to always try and keep behind Onana and Doucoure and hold the shape whether attacking or defending.
I wouldn’t play DCL and Beto together for a number of reasons, what if one gets injured? You’re back to having 1 CF with Chermiti on the bench and I think that they might try to make the same runs, occupy the same areas.
Anyway after the international break and Dyche can put out his strongest 11, if performances and results don’t begin to improve, he will need to think about a change in formation/tactics.

I feel the difference between the usage of symmetrical and balanced is us losing 1-4 to Arsenal vs. winning it 0-1, cause how are you gonna defend against 50-odd formations in a game? But whatever, the only person who has any actual impact is Dyche and his choice of tactics. I think DCL is hard done by so many folks who see faults in him rather than the mismanagement of good quality young players, same with Davies. If we had Foden, he'd walk out on a free at 24 and join Sunderland. We don't know how DCL is after coming back from his program, his current injury is a freak injury and the lad looks lanky now.
In Dyche's style having two CFs will ultimately reduce the strain on both of them possibly making it more likely they stay injury-free than in a sole CF condition. Their games as you have said are different and hence the positions they take up may not be similar. Even Dyche doesn't big up Beto's movement and praises his involvement in the game, Beto and DCL are very different CFs.
That said, I am just hoping for some form of 11 players who have a fighting chance against the opposing team on a given day not necessarily our strongest 11. And that requires some form of cognitive activity which has been lacking so far and lest I remind you, we spent an entire pre-season focusing only on Fitness (?) where even the manager didn't turn up after the break for most of them games.

 

[siddharth]

No he's not a 6, or he hasn't shown that's his role yet.

I think he played there for Forest and the U21 a couple of years ago.

 

[jonnyboy316]

Suspect it will be required at times during the season out of necessity due to a paucity of wide attacking options

 

[siddharth]

It’ll be 442 as soon as Dom is fit. It’s coming back in fashion and Dyche is obviously a fan. I like 442

Man City to buy Evan Ferguson for 150mil and partner him with Haaland and we will be hearing from Pep how 442 is boss and Dyche is the most progressive manager in the league.

 

[Calvin]

I feel the difference between the usage of symmetrical and balanced is us losing 1-4 to Arsenal vs. winning it 0-1, cause how are you gonna defend against 50-odd formations in a game? But whatever, the only person who has any actual impact is Dyche and his choice of tactics. I think DCL is hard done by so many folks who see faults in him rather than the mismanagement of good quality young players, same with Davies. If we had Foden, he'd walk out on a free at 24 and join Sunderland. We don't know how DCL is after coming back from his program, his current injury is a freak injury and the lad looks lanky now.
In Dyche's style having two CFs will ultimately reduce the strain on both of them possibly making it more likely they stay injury-free than in a sole CF condition. Their games as you have said are different and hence the positions they take up may not be similar. Even Dyche doesn't big up Beto's movement and praises his involvement in the game, Beto and DCL are very different CFs.
That said, I am just hoping for some form of 11 players who have a fighting chance against the opposing team on a given day not necessarily our strongest 11. And that requires some form of cognitive activity which has been lacking so far and lest I remind you, we spent an entire pre-season focusing only on Fitness (?) where even the manager didn't turn up after the break for most of them games.

In the Scotland set up, on the left you have Tierney playing as the left centre half in a back 3, with Robertson as left wing-back. So you have two left full backs. On the right side you have a right-centre half playing in the right side of the back 3 with either Patterson or Hickey as the right wing-back. The dynamic is totally different on each side. On the left you have Tierney and Robertson interchanging positions, overlapping runs, under lapping runs. On the right it is more conventional, the Centre back sits behind the wing-back, the wing-back (Hickey or Patterson) is the attacking threat. So it’s not symmetrical but it is balanced. Conversely you can have symmetry but it’s unbalanced, for example a back 4 which has one full back who is an attacking full back whilst the other full back isn’t, it’s symmetrical but not balanced.
Personally I wouldn’t play both Beto and DCL together, as I don’t believe the central midfield is good enough to get away with having only 2 players in there. I feel they may well get overrun against a lot of teams who play 3 in the middle of the park.

 

[degsy]

631 away would help

46

or if nobody's looking too hard - 66

Edit; Gueye is the problem
The theory is that when the FBs go up it leaves just 2CBs the DFMer is supposed to drop into the 2 to make it a 3.
1) he's to small
2) he goes walkabout

 

[siddharth]

In the Scotland set up, on the left you have Tierney playing as the left centre half in a back 3, with Robertson as left wing-back. So you have two left full backs. On the right side you have a right-centre half playing in the right side of the back 3 with either Patterson or Hickey as the right wing-back. The dynamic is totally different on each side. On the left you have Tierney and Robertson interchanging positions, overlapping runs, under lapping runs. On the right it is more conventional, the Centre back sits behind the wing-back, the wing-back (Hickey or Patterson) is the attacking threat. So it’s not symmetrical but it is balanced. Conversely you can have symmetry but it’s unbalanced, for example a back 4 which has one full back who is an attacking full back whilst the other full back isn’t, it’s symmetrical but not balanced.
Personally I wouldn’t play both Beto and DCL together, as I don’t believe the central midfield is good enough to get away with having only 2 players in there. I feel they may well get overrun against a lot of teams who play 3 in the middle of the park.

You know direct attacking chances from our defense on both wings is not necessary for balance is all I am suggesting. Myko needs to improve his passing no doubt, but if that is how he wants to play, playing with Danjuma in front of him might work. You don't even need attacking similarities for both wings, Balance is more for defensive organization than attacking in my opinion. Hence balance is whatever we do to match what gets thrown at us from the opposition.
I am also of the belief that a two-person midfield is no-good, I am advocating for Garner-Gana-Onana midfield over a Gana-Onana-Doucoure midfield.

 

[kiss the crest]

100% NO because Dyche would see that as an opportunity to get Keane back in the side

 

[DualityNSNO]

100% NO because Dyche would see that as an opportunity to get Keane back in the side

He doesn't need an opportunity, he'll make one based on nothing.

Next small error Branthwaite makes - Keane back in.

In fact, Branthwaite has pulled out of the England U21 team with a minor injury, which means he can't pass beep tests and won't be ready for at least 3 more weeks - Keane back in instantly.

 

[DualityNSNO]

Anyway, this is the only real answer to the thread's question