Yet another school massacre

[SuitsBlue]

the individual that has shot and killed 32 others it has been reported had some form of mental illness, it has not yet been reported whether he was taking any medication or recreational drugs or not, also, there are the relationships he was involved in on that campus, could he have been being bullied? was the stress and strain of his education become to much for him? was he isolated from his friends and family - meaning he had no one to talk too?

All these questions and very few answers, even if the person that sold him the glock 9mm had checked his background and seen that this individual was flagged as a potential danger and should not be allowed to buy a gun legally, i suspect he could have gone to a bar or into a ghetto and purchased a firearm illegally.

As for gun crime in the uk, it is a problem, the former eastern block have flooded the uk market with numerous handguns meaning a gun can be bought for as little as two or three hundred pounds (and very possibly less)

And so, the climate of fear goes up another notch.

 

[atrottel]

* There are nearly 200 million privately owned firearms in the US
* In 2004, there were nearly 11,000 homicides involving guns, according to the FBI
* Total number of victims from firearm incidents was 477,000 in 2005
* A British citizen is 50 times less likely to be a victim of gun homicide than an American
* One third of firearms are handguns
* 16 children and teenagers are killed by gun accidents in the US each day
* Guns that are kept for self defence are 43 times more likely to be used to kill a friend or family member
* Possessing a household gun increases the chance of suicide by five times.
* Guns are used five times more often for self defence than for crime
* 24 per cent of people who draw their guns actually fire them
* 5,000 gun shows are held per year across the United States
* The number of gunshot wounds from assaults treated in hospital emergency departments in America fell from 64,100 in 1993 to 39,400 in 1997, a 39 per cent decline

A collection of stats from today (which you can look at either way).

Personally speaking, and having lived in the UK, Europe and the American South, I completely and utterly disagree with TX Bill and the gun lobby. America's children are murdered or killed or maimed in accidents involving guns at an appalling rate and the country (and people in it) that wraps itself in religion and the flag ignores it.

People are killed or injured by firearms at an incredibly lower rate in Europe because most of them do not have guns or access to them. Full stop.

When people do have access to them over here (e.g. farmers) the rate of family tragedies involving shooting and suicides goes way up.

The unbearably sad thing about America is that there is no way to put Pandora back in the box even if there was the will to do so.

(By the way, happy birthday, TX Bill )

 

[TX Bill]

These UK gands... where do they get the guns?

What are the gun controls in Europe?

Is it possible that the guns so freely available from America are ending up here in the UK? ( I said here in the UK even though I'm in Japan....)

IMO we (the uk) did the right thing in banning them and if other countries did the same (I'm looking at you USA) then the number of guns on the streets would be next to none.

Unfortunatley even though the UK banned guns many years ago they still seem to be around, so if thats the case in the UK then even if the US banned guns tomorrow, it would take probably a century for all of the guns to be gone.

One big reason that the US goverment (especially the republicans) do not ever take action on tighter gun controls is that some of their biggest campaign donators are weapon manufacturers.

Money is King. Welcome to the USA.

P.S. bill... please answer ich's question... would you actually shoot someone in your home??

Rob you are right that the Republicans get donations from gun manufacturers, no disagreement there. Democrats get their donations from sources that I disagree with so no doubt that money is a main factor in political positions.

As far as Ichigo's question about would I shoot someone in my home?

My head says if my family was in danger and there was a chance one or all of us could lose our life to an intruder, yes, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot to kill.

My heart says that I really don't know how I would react. Would I freeze? Would I consider that I may end the life of someone else? Could I just scare them away without firing or at least firing at them?

Until I'm in the situation, which I pray I or my family is never in, I don't know exactly how it might go down. How's that for honesty?

One thing about the VA Tech massacre which I don't think was brought up in the previous discussion (correct me if I'm wrong) is that VA Tech was a "Gun Free" campus meaning no guns allowed, even I believe if you had a concealed handgun permit.

The two sides that have emerged in the debate regarding this tragedy are the obvious gun control side but also if concealed handguns were allowed, with proper permits, would someone possibly have been able to stop this psychotic madman before he had killed as many as he had.

Believe it or not, I actually don't believe that a school campus is a proper place for a gun, legally held or not. If I have a permit, I should be able to keep one in my home or in my car in my opinion.

We shall see how this continues to play out in the media (we know which side they're on even though the media isn't supposed to take sides) and in the court of public opinion.

 

[TX Bill]

A collection of stats from today (which you can look at either way).

Personally speaking, and having lived in the UK, Europe and the American South, I completely and utterly disagree with TX Bill and the gun lobby. America's children are murdered or killed or maimed in accidents involving guns at an appalling rate and the country (and people in it) that wraps itself in religion and the flag ignores it.

People are killed or injured by firearms at an incredibly lower rate in Europe because most of them do not have guns or access to them. Full stop.

When people do have access to them over here (e.g. farmers) the rate of family tragedies involving shooting and suicides goes way up.

The unbearably sad thing about America is that there is no way to put Pandora back in the box even if there was the will to do so.

(By the way, happy birthday, TX Bill )

Thanks for the birthday wishes, thank goodness I don't "feel" 40 years old (yet...)

I agree with your statement (although not so much the Pandora's box) in that how do you further regulate guns and reconcile that with the 2nd amendment?

It's always sad when something like this happens but again, I'll go back to my statement that it's not the guns that go around killing people like this. It's the demented individuals who are responsible for their actions and their actions alone.

But even if I wanted further regulation of guns in this country, I just don't know how we go about it.

By the way, I find it interesting that the media here in the US always plays up the gun angle in these issues yet never cites the instances where guns were used to prevent crimes or mass killings (and there are many, believe me). Interesting.

 

[atrottel]

It's the demented individuals who are responsible for their actions and their actions alone.

Yes, but don't you agree that it is the easy access of those demented individuals to weapons that increases the frequency and intensity of the tragedies?

 

[SuitsBlue]

lets brush up the simple parts first (fitting for me eh)

a person doesnt need a gun to kill, but to massacre, most other weapons make the deed rather difficult, for instance some knife wielding maniac could easily be overpowered by two or three people, there is no overpowering a gun.

the stats from atro make interesting reading, if those are answers, i wonder what the questions were

ie...

"* Guns that are kept for self defence are 43 times more likely to be used to kill a friend or family member"

there isnt enough information here, did a burglar find the household stash of weapons? did a child or adolescent find the stash? how many dick cheney type accidents occured in this statistic? did the gun owner come home early and find his wife getting roasted by the postman and the milkman - then go on a spree? did the gun owner become fearful of an intruder when it was just the teenage son sneaking in after dark?

there are that many possibilities that its difficult to judge what some of the stats are getting at.

 

[Rob]

a stat is what it always is, a vauge truth... vague yes but true all the same.

Thanks for the honesty bill, I was expected a typical texan "yeh I shoot his gawd damn brains out" type response but you have shown me up instead! (nice one!)

Guns are bad, stop producing them. Eventually in say 400 years time surely all the guns around today will be so old they don't work....

Time is a great healer they say :biggrin:

 

[monty]

Rob, let me turn Atr question on its head for you, if you and your wife were being attacked, a gun was avialable for your use, the assailants went to rape your wife, what would you do?

PS No, you can't say that no gun would be available because in this scenario it is, a bloody big gun at that with shiny bullets. You only choice is to see your wife raped or defend.

 

[teppic]

a [Poor language removed] great big bat. work the head.

no to guns.

 

[monty]

a [Poor language removed] great big bat. work the head.

no to guns.

Sorry teppic the question is would you use one if the circumstances demanded, not are they right.

 

[teppic]

whatever the crime i would never take a life.

perhaps if the guns only came with plastic bullets. or sponge. that might reduce the fatality rate.

 

[Chris]

Sorry teppic the question is would you use one if the circumstances demanded, not are they right.

Its not a realistic question in any sense though is it. Its a bit massochistic even to ask it tbh

Bill got the answer right I feel, but I think Bill is seemingly more level headed than most Americans I have read comments from, know or spoken to. A younger man might not have been so self analyzing and just said "sure".

I honestly think I feel the same though. Would you maim or injure an assailant in your home? In the UK its a complex issue. Anyone remember the farmer with his shotgun and the 16 year old boy? Self-defence. Hmm.

In the UK if someone breaks in to your home, you HAVE to warn them that you are armed(in some way) and fully prepared to defend yourself and your family in any way necessary BEFORE you can protect yourself and family. Even then you cannot go for the attacker, they have to actually be physically about to or in the process of ignoring your threat.
If you don't you can actually be arrested and put in prison for assault/battery or even if it goes full tilt in the fray, murder. Crazy isn't it.

I think there are a lot of [Poor language removed] up things in this world. Self protection in your own home recently got added to that list.

Its not an every day situation, but there are some intense and instant decisions that need to be made on the spot by people that are in extreme fight or flight mode (unless you are disciplined or conditioned such as a police officer or military). Nobody really knows how they would react, gun or not.
I just hope I never have to make those decisions in even a related situation, but if I do I hope God is on my side that day

 

[monty]

whatever the crime i would never take a life.

perhaps if the guns only came with plastic bullets. or sponge. that might reduce the fatality rate.

That is where we differ, I hate guns but in that circumstance I'd shoot the bastards dead on the spot showing them the same regard they'd showed others. If your local society has broken down to that extent I would arm myself, no question, because it would be a last course of action. You have no need to love guns to use one.

 

[atrottel]

If your local society has broken down to that extent I would arm myself, no question, because it would be a last course of action. You have no need to love guns to use one.

Well that's true, and that's why I don't think your question asking people what to do is particularly relevant.

The point is that you don't (at least I am assuming you don't) own a gun for self-defence even though there is a certain level of gun crime near where you live.

So that suggests that it is not an all-or-nothing question, but rather a question of a rational judgement of the level of risk to you and the level of risk involved in you owning a gun (which includes in the UK the "risk" of it being illegal). If you thought the risk was high enough or you believed in a "man's right to self-defence" then you would own one.

The same question exists in the USA, and here the equation might be different. Gun-users and -owners might feel the risk to them is greater than the risk of ownership. And now we are talking about the risk of ownership including the fact that a) your family and friends (or yourself) increase their chances of dying from the firearm by multiples, and b) you have introduced a deadly weapon into any confrontation which may, as TXBill rightly points out, end up saving you, or may, as happens frequently, end up with the weapon being used against you.

 

[TX Bill]

Its not a realistic question in any sense though is it. Its a bit massochistic even to ask it tbh

Bill got the answer right I feel, but I think Bill is seemingly more level headed than most Americans I have read comments from, know or spoken to. A younger man might not have been so self analyzing and just said "sure".

I honestly think I feel the same though. Would you maim or injure an assailant in your home? In the UK its a complex issue. Anyone remember the farmer with his shotgun and the 16 year old boy? Self-defence. Hmm.

In the UK if someone breaks in to your home, you HAVE to warn them that you are armed(in some way) and fully prepared to defend yourself and your family in any way necessary BEFORE you can protect yourself and family. Even then you cannot go for the attacker, they have to actually be physically about to or in the process of ignoring your threat.
If you don't you can actually be arrested and put in prison for assault/battery or even if it goes full tilt in the fray, murder. Crazy isn't it.

I think there are a lot of [Poor language removed] up things in this world. Self protection in your own home recently got added to that list.

Its not an every day situation, but there are some intense and instant decisions that need to be made on the spot by people that are in extreme fight or flight mode (unless you are disciplined or conditioned such as a police officer or military). Nobody really knows how they would react, gun or not.
I just hope I never have to make those decisions in even a related situation, but if I do I hope God is on my side that day

Ok mods...I want Ichigo banned.

I'm only 40 for a day and he's implying that I'm "older."