2021/22 Rafael Benitez

[Saint Domingo]

@ForeverBlue92 , @davek , @Saint Domingo - there's others but I know you guys are the ones I've debated with the most.

Taking on board the caveats of injuries (which we did have before October 17th but the bad run of them started then), and these players having an ability to bottle things, can you please, please tell me why, based on the above, it is worth sticking with/risking sticking with this man, and why we should back him?

And, that reasoning can't be that just because our crackpot owner has chosen to do so, we should get behind the bloke.

If we sack him in my view the cycle will just repeat. This is where I think we are fundamentally different and why there’s no agreement in this debate.

I don’t think any manager would get anything decent out of these players. Ancelotti was trying everything and even he had ended up playing a horrible 5 at the back and hoping to nick a point and by the end even that wasn’t working.

So for me the manager at the moment is a complete irrelevance. If we fire him, that’s just a stay of execution for these rubbish players and less money for us to replace them.

I am convinced this group isn’t capable of getting European football, so for me the difference between us limping into 9th with a fake new manager bounce or disinhibition 12-15th retaining the current manager is neither here nor there this season. If we get a new manager then Coleman Keane and co will have him under a bus before the Jan window next season anyway.

So for me my main concern is to get these players out. Arguably not firing Benitez prior to this window has allowed us to close on Mykolenko and Patterson early on and will hopefully see some exits. Had we fired him then in the uncertainty some players who need to go will have survived. Perked up the second half of the season to ensure they don’t go over the summer, then go about getting another manager fired next year.

Time to break the cycle. There’s no dreamworld where a Kovac or similar comes in mid season and gets the useless lard arses in our team doing anything, they can barely pass a ball this lot. They’re like no other squad in the league I know of, just a bunch of apathetic cowards happy to cower behind successive sacked managers. Get them out.

 

[Cow kecks]

They'd be spilling out of that. You'd have to bank it up with old doors to keep them all in.

Nar, none of them would fit in if Rondon was first.

 

[BrendanGOT]

If we sack him in my view the cycle will just repeat. This is where I think we are fundamentally different and why there’s no agreement in this debate.

I don’t think any manager would get anything decent out of these players. Ancelotti was trying everything and even he had ended up playing a horrible 5 at the back and hoping to nick a point and by the end even that wasn’t working.

So for me the manager at the moment is a complete irrelevance. If we fire him, that’s just a stay of execution for these rubbish players and less money for us to replace them.

I am convinced this group isn’t capable of getting European football, so for me the difference between us limping into 9th with a fake new manager bounce or disinhibition 12-15th retaining the current manager is neither here nor there this season. If we get a new manager then Coleman Keane and co will have him under a bus before the Jan window next season anyway.

So for me my main concern is to get these players out. Arguably not firing Benitez prior to this window has allowed us to close on Mykolenko and Patterson early on and will hopefully see some exits. Had we fired him then in the uncertainty some players who need to go will have survived. Perked up the second half of the season to ensure they don’t go over the summer, then go about getting another manager fired next year.

Time to break the cycle. There’s no dreamworld where a Kovac or similar comes in mid season and gets the useless lard arses in our team doing anything, they can barely pass a ball this lot. They’re like no other squad in the league I know of, just a bunch of apathetic cowards happy to cower behind successive sacked managers. Get them out.

I want Benitez gone if he can't get a few wins in the next 3 games tbh as then we'll be in trouble and we'll need that new manager bounce. Brighton really got to me. I was giving him the by ball with injuries etc but there was no excuse at home to Brighton and no excuse for that line up. Coleman who's struggling at RB gets played at LB over Digne/ Godfrey and it was an utter crap show. We had wingers and wingbacks in eachothers space on top of eachother and the players looked clueless at times, that's all on the manager for me.

The set piece goal etc is on the players but again zonal marking isn't working and he won't switch it up. Their 3rd was on the system imo we just get over run.

However over the season the players have been responsible for 6 or 7 errors leading to goal, worst in the league. Those 6 or 7 goals are potentially 6-9 points down the drain, assuming they lost us games, as I don't know which games they happened in just the stat.

The same players have been here under many managers before too so I agree with you to an extent and this is why I was backing Benitez up until Brighton.

The tactics are worrying, persisting with zonal marking, conceding possession and inviting so much pressure onto a team that ultimately can't defend without changing it up to grind out results like Ancelloti did is just pure stubborn /crazy and could have us in a relegation fight. I don't see how a LB and a RB who probably won't be experienced enough to play solves anything either. Worrying for sure.

 

[BlueToff]

He's a successful manager
He's as good as we can expect to get right now given all the circumstances
We need an iconoclast to get stuck into this dysfunctional club at all levels and strip it right down to what's salvagable and what has to go.

first point, how to do you quantify that?

He has won things in the past, but so have Everton. Are Everton a successful football club still?

Benitez last won a trophy, with a team far better than Everton, in 2014. He used to be a successful manager, he isn't anymore. His recent record (in China) is appalling. He blamed the owner at Newcastle but what he could control was the playing style and it was abysmal. He has a relegation on his CV more recently than a trophy or any tangible success such as European qualification, for example.

He isn't as good as we can expect at all. There are far better managers who were - and are - available.

If you really, really believe another manager would have taken us on this run then I despair.

 

[BlueToff]

If we sack him in my view the cycle will just repeat. This is where I think we are fundamentally different and why there’s no agreement in this debate.

I don’t think any manager would get anything decent out of these players. Ancelotti was trying everything and even he had ended up playing a horrible 5 at the back and hoping to nick a point and by the end even that wasn’t working.

So for me the manager at the moment is a complete irrelevance. If we fire him, that’s just a stay of execution for these rubbish players and less money for us to replace them.

I am convinced this group isn’t capable of getting European football, so for me the difference between us limping into 9th with a fake new manager bounce or disinhibition 12-15th retaining the current manager is neither here nor there this season. If we get a new manager then Coleman Keane and co will have him under a bus before the Jan window next season anyway.

So for me my main concern is to get these players out. Arguably not firing Benitez prior to this window has allowed us to close on Mykolenko and Patterson early on and will hopefully see some exits. Had we fired him then in the uncertainty some players who need to go will have survived. Perked up the second half of the season to ensure they don’t go over the summer, then go about getting another manager fired next year.

Time to break the cycle. There’s no dreamworld where a Kovac or similar comes in mid season and gets the useless lard arses in our team doing anything, they can barely pass a ball this lot. They’re like no other squad in the league I know of, just a bunch of apathetic cowards happy to cower behind successive sacked managers. Get them out.

Well, i worry the cycle will continue as well. But that doesn't mean we should stick with this man, does it? Just because the owner has made previous bad choices (with this one being the worst) doesn't mean we can alleviate Benitez of blame, and say he should be here. He shouldn't be. The owner needs to take accountability and a strong DoF who knows the British footballing system/culture (I don't think Brands did, I think he was too relaxed, I said that from the start, I think he thought he could get away with cutting the squad/leaving it short and that we'd be fine like you would be in the Netherlands, and also found his hands tied too).

Then, Moshiri needs to leave that DoF to it. The board need to instruct said DoF what type of football is needed, and the DoF needs to go out and hire people and players to bring that model to life.

I don't think this team is capable of European football either although we were extremely close last season and if not for some ludicrously bad results in the last few weeks, we'd have got it. How have we gone from that to now being in real danger of a relegation scrap? The squad is largely the same.

The manager is not an irrelevance. We sacked the DoF because of results ON the pitch. For Brands' faults, he is not responsible for setting the team up, he is not responsible for persisting with systems that don't work, or playing Seamus Coleman at LWB out of stubbornness to play the only available LB in the squad, for example.

I and others are not asking for Man City or Liverpool quality or style. We expect better than what has been served up this season, which has been dross.

I hope the 2nd half of the season is better. But the argument of the club needing stability does not stand up when Benitez is not a manager that has ever been at a 'stable' club, because he isn't a manager who has ever had or encouraged stability. He falls out with players, owners, medical staff, DoFs.... That's not based on his time here btw (though he has done 2 of the 4 already), but over the course of his career. Why do you think a man who famously likes to rock the boat (which people who laud over him or back him have actually said btw - I know for certain posters on here have said that's exactly what we need in a manager in this situation) is the man to be here and be 'stable'?

 

[davek]

first point, how to do you quantify that?

He has won things in the past, but so have Everton. Are Everton a successful football club still?

Benitez last won a trophy, with a team far better than Everton, in 2014. He used to be a successful manager, he isn't anymore. His recent record (in China) is appalling. He blamed the owner at Newcastle but what he could control was the playing style and it was abysmal. He has a relegation on his CV more recently than a trophy or any tangible success such as European qualification, for example.

He isn't as good as we can expect at all. There are far better managers who were - and are - available.

If you really, really believe another manager would have taken us on this run then I despair.

I cant get past that. Hilarious.

 

[Efcjake]

He's a successful manager
He's as good as we can expect to get right now given all the circumstances
We need an iconoclast to get stuck into this dysfunctional club at all levels and strip it right down to what's salvagable and what has to go.

I notice none of your points have anything to do with how he's performing in THIS job.

Is that because he's not succeeding?

 

[BrendanGOT]

DCL is our best goal scorer and yes he has been a big miss but you can't compare him to Salah and Mane being out of a team come on.... They are world class. He has scored twenty goals in one season and that's including cups.

20 goals we aren't getting from elsewhere. He creates too, if memory serves me right, last game he held up the ball and played the pass to Kenny for the assist to Gordon. Small things like that make a big difference. Rondon isn't doing that nevermind scoring so there is an argument to be had there for Benitez.

Factor in on top of that losing:

James (6 goals, 4 assists and 11 big chances)
Sigurdsson (6 goals, 5 assists and 4 big chances)
Digne (0 goals, 7 assists, 11 big chances)
That's a lot of creativity and goals gone.

We're halfway through the season so cut those numbers in half 6 goals, 8 assists and 13 big chances gone and not replaced for the first half of this season.

Digne is the managers own doing albeit. Not defending him but they're numbers worth considering. I still don't think he can turn it around with new players etc, Brighton was testament to that.

 

[BlueToff]

I cant get past that. Hilarious.

You mean you haven't got an answer?

He was a successful manager in the past with previous clubs.

He hasn't had any tangible form of success in seven 1/2 years.

 

[BlueToff]

20 goals we aren't getting from elsewhere. He creates too, if memory serves me right, last game he held up the ball and played the pass to Kenny for the assist to Gordon. Small things like that make a big difference. Rondon isn't doing that nevermind scoring so there is an argument to be had there for Benitez.

Factor in on top of that losing:

James (6 goals, 4 assists and 11 big chances)
Sigurdsson (6 goals, 5 assists and 4 big chances)
Digne (0 goals, 7 assists, 11 big chances)
That's a lot of creativity and goals gone.

We're halfway through the season so cut those numbers in half 6 goals, 8 assists and 13 big chances gone and not replaced for the first half of this season.

Digne is the managers own doing albeit. Not defending him but they're numbers worth considering. I still don't think he can turn it around with new players etc, Brighton was testament to that.

Hang on though, I know you say this at the end but two of those players are not here or not going to be here at least in large part because of Benitez.

We can argue the toss all day with James. Whether or not he'd have stayed. I can certainly see the argument that he'd have gone anyway. But when me and a few others in here were saying in the summer 'lads, you'll miss him when he's gone', we got shouted down with 'Benitez won't play him' or 'he's injured all the time anyway'.

Digne, as you say, is all the manager's own doing. Yeah, his form has dipped this season, it's fair to say, but Benitez has compounded that bad form by playing an archaic system and weirdly telling Coleman to be the more attacking player.

I know you're playing Devil's advocate so not looking to be argumentative. I just don't think even this defence of Benitez stands up. I doubt he'd have played James at all even if he's stayed (as we've seen with evidence now given the Digne situation). He probably would have played GS, and that's not in his control, but let's face it, GS wasn't exactly a fan favourite was he.

 

[rochdaleblue]

20 goals we aren't getting from elsewhere. He creates too, if memory serves me right, last game he held up the ball and played the pass to Kenny for the assist to Gordon. Small things like that make a big difference. Rondon isn't doing that nevermind scoring so there is an argument to be had there for Benitez.

Factor in on top of that losing:

James (6 goals, 4 assists and 11 big chances)
Sigurdsson (6 goals, 5 assists and 4 big chances)
Digne (0 goals, 7 assists, 11 big chances)
That's a lot of creativity and goals gone.

We're halfway through the season so cut those numbers in half 6 goals, 8 assists and 13 big chances gone and not replaced for the first half of this season.

Digne is the managers own doing albeit. Not defending him but they're numbers worth considering. I still don't think he can turn it around with new players etc, Brighton was testament to that.

All this from from a player on the decline!
We had fans happy we took the money for lukaku because his control was poor. We had fans on stones’ back because he tried to show composure in front of the park end. We had fans happy to see James going because he doesn’t run around a lot and press the opposition (more goals and assists than the entire midfield combined) Be careful what you wish for….

 

[BrendanGOT]

Hang on though, I know you say this at the end but two of those players are not here or not going to be here at least in large part because of Benitez.

We can argue the toss all day with James. Whether or not he'd have stayed. I can certainly see the argument that he'd have gone anyway. But when me and a few others in here were saying in the summer 'lads, you'll miss him when he's gone', we got shouted down with 'Benitez won't play him' or 'he's injured all the time anyway'.

Digne, as you say, is all the manager's own doing. Yeah, his form has dipped this season, it's fair to say, but Benitez has compounded that bad form by playing an archaic system and weirdly telling Coleman to be the more attacking player.

I know you're playing Devil's advocate so not looking to be argumentative. I just don't think even this defence of Benitez stands up. I doubt he'd have played James at all even if he's stayed (as we've seen with evidence now given the Digne situation). He probably would have played GS, and that's not in his control, but let's face it, GS wasn't exactly a fan favourite was he.

I don't think it stands up with regards to Digne, barring his form, agree 100%. But regarding Sigurdsson and James, that's on the club to make the funds available for replacements. So we have to give him a slight by ball there. Its a lot of goals, assists and chances to lose and not replace. It's no wonder we've been shocking, I think any manager would struggle losing that but that's where we come back to your point. Two of those losses probably are on Benitez shoulders and the 3rd is on the club who should have replaced Sigurdsson

 

[BrendanGOT]

I a

All this from from a player on the decline!
We had fans happy we took the money for lukaku because his control was poor. We had fans on stones’ back because he tried to show composure in front of the park end. We had fans happy to see James going because he doesn’t run around a lot and press the opposition (more goals and assists than the entire midfield combined) Be careful what you wish for….

I agree mate, even Sigurdssons numbers are a loss. Losing Digne is bad for us and I just hope the new lad is up to scratch. James and Sigurdsson still haven't been replaced by the club either, no wonder we're floundering. Add a mental injury situation and bad tactics to that and it's a recipe for disaster.

 

[rochdaleblue]

I a

I agree mate, even Sigurdssons numbers are a loss. Losing Digne is bad for us and I just hope the new lad is up to scratch. James and Sigurdsson still haven't been replaced by the club either, no wonder we're floundering. Add a mental injury situation and bad tactics to that and it's a recipe for disaster.

Genuinely forgot about Siguardisson. His stats are worth considering. But I think we’ve missed James far more.

 

[BlueToff]

I don't think it stands up with regards to Digne, barring his form, agree 100%. But regarding Sigurdsson and James, that's on the club to make the funds available for replacements. So we have to give him a slight by ball there. Its a lot of goals, assists and chances to lose and not replace. It's no wonder we've been shocking, I think any manager would struggle losing that but that's where we come back to your point. Two of those losses probably are on Benitez shoulders and the 3rd is on the club who should have replaced Sigurdsson

Well I think we have made the funds available from James? He went after the window had closed mate. Benitez could have said no, we'll keep him here and I'll play him until January. But he didn't, he authorised the move in order to free up wages etc and leeway in FFP - which is what has allowed us to bring in Mykolenko and Patterson (before selling Digne).

In what manner could the club have replaced Sigurdsson in the summer though? This isn't a criticism of Benitez here but Sig's situation is obviously very different. All we know is he has been suspended. He is still under contract and he's still be paid by the club mate. His contract hasn't been ripped up and right now, he hasn't been charged. So the club probably have no grounds to do anything other than mutual termination. And I doubt GS is going to terminate a deal that is paying him £100k (at least, probably more) a week, when let's face it his career may be over. So with what money are they going to bring in a replacement?

It looks like they tried for VDB on loan from United late in the last window but by all accounts Benitez wasn't keen on him (and I think that's fair, he wouldn't suit this system at all, as crap as I think this system is), and then United pulled out of the deal anyway.