2015 post UK election discussion

[Tubey]

And yet when they put Michael Heseltine (probably no2 in government) in as Minister for Liverpool, specifically to help sort the place out, they still got reviled and abused.......

Because they did nothing. Council spending power cut while it increased in the south, GVA for the north massively behind the south.

Do you really think the problem here is some naughty words from people proven to get the short end of the stick over and over again, or could it be a problem with the people giving them that short end of the stick?

 

[daylightrobber]

I'm sorry, but on this occasion you are simply arguing in the face of facts. As I said previously, even though you may have a low opinion of the Tories, you really do need to remove the blinkers on this particular issue and understand the reality.

The Tories have campaigned against every single attempt to remove Scottish MP's from Westminster, they are a Unionist party, that means the union, even with all its imperfections, is of the upmost importance to them.

As for their campaign, you couldn't have misread it more if you tried. They aren't suggesting for a second that Scotland have less legitimacy, their campaign was simply that the SNP's only tangible objective is to create an independent Scotland, so them in power with Labour would have brought the chances of devo-max/independence ever closer.

In the past 24 hours I've found myself defending Socialism and the Tories. Maybe I need a break.

I think it's very naive to think there was more chance of Scottish independence under Labour. The Tories had a strategy based on fear. They pulled it off and the outcome is full on SNP In Scotland. If they were unionist their main objective would've been to crush the SNP to prevent it happening.

They've got the result they wanted knowing that independence would follow. Suits them down to the ground.

 

[Mrk]

And yet when they put Michael Heseltine (probably no2 in government) in as Minister for Liverpool, specifically to help sort the place out, they still got reviled and abused.......

It was a bit of a [Poor language removed] compromise to be fair Pete!

"Hi, we're slashing your funding and decimating the ideology your city holds dear, but here's a very rich man who's going to plant some tree's, so be grateful".

 

[Tubey]

The Conservatives have made clear that they want to devolve further power and spending to cities and urban areas, but not via Combined Authorities.

Greater Manchester is getting more powers and cash via a so-called metro mayor - but in Merseyside only Mayor Anderson supports the idea.

On Monday Chancellor George Osborne claimed his door was “still open” to Mr Anderson over talks about a Metro Mayor and more powers for Merseyside.

Mayor Anderson if necessary, he would seek more powers for Liverpool alone.

He said: “I’m going to be arguing to George Osborne that Liverpool has got a mayoral system and we need more fiscal devolution and more powers to actually do more ourselves.

Oh do they! Let's see it then! They have a mandate now don't they, a majority in parliament - go for it!

Unfortunately, all I see is cutting councils all over the shop and thrashing the poor in these areas of the country disproportionately.

You live in cloud cuckoo land on this.

 

[Tubey]

It was a bit of a [Poor language removed] compromise to be fair Pete!

"Hi, we're slashing your funding and decimating the ideology your city holds dear, but here's a very rich man who's going to plant some tree's, so be grateful".

I think the HS2 project is very telling. It's basically saying, "look, the north is goosed, but we're going to throw you a bone by allowing you to get to London quicker - come join the party!"

Instead of, you know, helping the north develop an economy of its own through private enterprise.

 

[daylightrobber]

You live in cloud cuckoo land on this.

Whilst effectively putting the blame on the citizens rather than those who are meant to serve.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That is not true and you must know it, unless you mean in terms of the state.

The Tories are for the status quo in keeping the City of London strong at the cost of everything else. They shrink the state closer to London every time they are in, and the north is shat on.

If they wanted to de-centralise, you do it by offering state support to the north and less to the south, to combat the inequality in private enterprise - then you adjust and encourage private enterprise regionally with the greater infrastructure in these regenerated areas through central funding.

What exactly does Joe Anderson do?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

*sigh*

Absolutely pony that I'm afraid. The onus isn't on the people of Merseyside to change, it's on the Tories.

Look, I'll sum it up in a succinct way:

A. A part of the country is basically a barren wasteland, nothing there except a few islands of wealth in a sea of poverty.
B. Another part of the country is structured exclusively for big investment and offers everything a private enterprise needs.

Question: Where is a new company to Britain going to set up?

Next question:

The financially barren part of the country needs to attract new enterprise. How does it do this?

A. Start saying nice things to the Tories and cross their fingers?
B. Receive funding to improve infrastructure, increase the skilled workforce and offer a desirable place to do business?


Now assuming the answers to both questions are 'B', how do you turn that on its head?

The funding to do it has to come from somewhere. So instead of cutting the north, how about investing in it.

Did that happen in the 13 years of Labour administration, and what were the results?

 

[Mrk]

I think it's very naive to think there was more chance of Scottish independence under Labour. The Tories had a strategy based on fear. They pulled it off and the outcome is full on SNP In Scotland. If they were unionist their main objective would've been to crush the SNP to prevent it happening.

They've got the result they wanted knowing that independence would follow. Suits them down to the ground.

You're either showing a complete lack of understanding or you're being wilfully ignorant, I'm afraid.

If the SNP was a kingmaker in a Labour government, they would have had an incredible amount of influence over the government of the day, because Labour would have been reliant on the SNP for every single vote. The SNP would not have supported Labour unconditionally, they would of course push for the fiscal autonomy that they want and Labour would have no alternative but to grant it to them.

After fiscal autonomy, the next step is full independence, and that would be unstoppable. That is why the Tories were well within their rights to warn of this, whether you like them or not.

But your last sentence is risible - if you genuinely think the Tories want an independent Scotland, you have been reading some very, very dodgy history books.

Please, just on this occasion, remove any political affiliations or prejudices you may have and look at the facts.

 

[Tubey]

What exactly does Joe Anderson do?

Absolutely nothing. He's a left wing whopper. He does more damage to our city than good.

But to say that his stance is somehow preventing investment up north is ludicrous. If the Tories had an appetite to help the north, they could do it.

 

[Tree13]

The welfare state is for people like you if things go wrong. Cut your standard of living and don't wait.

And if everyone take that approach, and it goes wrong for a significant number of them, who picks up the bill?

 

[Mrk]

I think the HS2 project is very telling. It's basically saying, "look, the north is goosed, but we're going to throw you a bone by allowing you to get to London quicker - come join the party!"

Instead of, you know, helping the north develop an economy of its own through private enterprise.

In fairness, I think their idea of creating a "Northern powerhouse" is very interesting. They've not said too much about it, so it could be another "Big Society", but hopefully it has some meaningful initiatives.

 

[Minimeister]

Well that's one way for Merseyside to be well and truly screwed. Or, just for a change, as doing the same thing over and over doesn't seem to have worked, maybe Merseyside could try working with a Conservative Government to become one of the proposed Northern Powerhouses. Nah, won't happen, Merseyside politicians will fight them tooth and nail, feel sorry for themselves, while Manchester takes a pragmatic view and totally and utterly replaces what was once the greatest city of the North...........

I think you'll find most labour supporters were feeling sorry for others rather than themselves since Thursday's result. Even looking in this thread you can tell people who were looking after their own self interest and who would have been feeling most sorry for themselves had Thursdays result been different.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

As an aside, if you look at state spending per head for each region of England (index of 100), then the North West has a rating of 104. The North East has 108, and London 110. They're the only parts of England above 100.

 

[Tubey]

Did that happen in the 13 years of Labour administration, and what were the results?

It certainly didn't. New Labour were even closer to the City than the Tories in many ways.

But I'm not defending Labour with what I said - the north has suffered since the 80s under every government as there's been no appetite to threaten the status quo. My argument is that you can help the north and make the country as a whole stronger, while causing little to no damage to the core in place in the south.

I'm not advocating "financial socialism", where there's no economic stronghold in London, but what I am saying is there needs to be an aim at reducing the gap, as it's causing widespread issues.