2015 post UK election discussion

[rascal]

On the upside, the super-rich are cracking open the caviar and champers tonight.

Stop it you horrible class warrior.

 

[flibbyflob]

For once the blues winning might not have been a good result.

Though I am not sure the reds are any good anyway, didn't have any faith in Milliband and Balls so both them going from the scene is good. Interesting times ahead with Labour needing to get the selection of leader right or face years in the wilderness.

As for the Lib Dems well they had a shocker, I think England's cricket team did better in the last ashes than that. Going to be a long road back after this. Get in bed with the devil though and you get burnt.

 

[rascal]

My god you've descended into absolute hysteria from about 11pm yesterday

Do you actually pay attention to current affairs? By that I mean digging deeper than the BBC 6 O Clock news.

 

[roydo]

Spot on.

The Labour party and it's supporters need to take it on the chin, not make any excuses and sort it out. The SNP may have had a small effect here and there in England, but can't be blamed for Labour's failure. Hiding behind excuses would be awful. If nothing else, the country needs a credible opposition.

The Labour party played to their own gallery. They spoke about public sector workers as though no one else existed. They banged on about the NHS being in crisis, and that the Tories would wreck it, which anyone who uses it, (me for example), know from experience, is not true.

They needed voters like me to want to vote them in. And they said nothing to make me want to.

Now the usual suspects will jump on that, but the truth of the matter is, the winners of an election in the UK usually has to appeal to the mass, centre ground. They didnt.

Lob in the probable SNP factor, where Sturgeon almost gleefully said she would gladly lock the Tories out of power, without a single voter from England having a say in that, and the dye, in hindsight, was cast.

 

[flibbyflob]

The Labour party played to their own gallery. They spoke about public sector workers as though no one else existed. They banged on about the NHS being in crisis, and that the Tories would wreck it, which anyone who uses it, (me for example), know from experience, is not true.

They needed voters like me to want to vote them in. And they said nothing to make me want to.

Now the usual suspects will jump on that, but the truth of the matter is, the winners of an election in the UK usually has to appeal to the mass, centre ground. They didnt.

Lob in the probable SNP factor, where Sturgeon almost gleefully said she would gladly lock the Tories out of power, without a single voter from England having a say in that, and the dye, in hindsight, was cast.

Add in the fact that the Welsh NHS that they run is a disaster and they were never going to be listened to on their main point.

 

[marty mcfly]

A bold, hypothetical and certainly untrue statement, but the SNP definitely did have an effect on Conservative gains/Labour losses in England.

Isn't that even a bold, hypothetical and possibly untrue statement?

I think Labour lost because Milliband said they didn't overspend in the last parliment. That scared the crap out of me.

 

[flibbyflob]

Isn't that even a bold, hypothetical and possibly untrue statement?

I think Labour lost because Milliband said they didn't overspend in the last parliment. That scared the crap out of me.

Yeah, they were doing ok till that last debate, almost convinced me but then he said that and I was waiting for Nigel Pearson to ask him if he was an ostrich.

 

[Clint Planet]

Stop it you horrible class warrior.

Sorry, I just can't help victimising the wealthy and invulnerable in society. As opposed to these sponging layabouts:

"

Rosa Davies
5 hrs · Edited ·
I don't think able-bodied people understand the fear and threat and legitimate worry that the results of this election mean for a lot of disabled people. It's not that we're disappointed that our team didn't win. Disability groups I am a member of are literally posting numbers to the Samaritans and other helplines for members to phone.

People care even less than I thought they did. A Tory majority is far worse than expected. They're going to tax disability benefit (the same as reducing it) and they're going to tighten the definition as to who deserves to get it. It's not just money to us, or a pair of new jeans or whatever. It's the difference between leaving your house and not. It's a way to be less disabled by our impairments, a way to try to live our lives as best we can. Making disabled people poorer makes us more disabled. Money is access. It makes the circle labeled Things I Can't Do bigger and Things I Could Do smaller. And that first circle is so big to begin with.

Even if you agree with the idea that making the rich richer helps the poor, what is happening to disabled people in this country helps no one. Marginalising the disabled doesn't somehow improve things for anyone else. It makes it worse for the able-bodied too. Even if you are not caring for, a family member of, or friends with a disabled person, in the words of Richard Herring, "If you’re not disabled now, then one day you might be. When that happens you’ll want to go to the pub or get on public transport. You’ll want to be seen as a person, not as a disability. Purely out of selfishness you should be fighting for disabled rights. If you don’t, you are prejudiced against your future self. And your future self hates you and thinks you’re a [Poor language removed]."

How can we push back? It is important to fight back, to get active. We need to win allies. We need to set up an activist group so that I can get on Channel4 News and swear at a politician live on TV. I don't know what to do but I don't want to be passive."

========================================================================================

Shame on us.

 

[Woolly Blue]

No mate, it's much more nuanced (and slightly sinister) than that. If, for example, Murdoch was in favour of Ed (as he was Tony Bliar), do you not think we may have had a rather different result?

No.

People aren't as naive as you'd like to think they are and the power of the press is diminishing anyway. If you keep looking for people to blame outside the party then you lessen your chances of fixing what's wrong. Yesterday the electorate looked at the options, ignored the weaker in society and rejected Labour.

It sounds cynical, but Labour has to find a way to convince people in marginals that there's something in it for them if they vote Labour. As the economy improves and peoples disposable income increases, they MIGHT be more amenable to vote for a better society rather than their wallet, but you can't rely on that.

 

[marty mcfly]

One thing that has astounded me in the polling data is how many people in what you would think would be staunch Labour areas have ended up voting UKIP. I really cannot begin to understand how anyone would think that was an intelligent thing to do. The chances of UKIP winning seats were almost non-existent and they've ended up helping the Tories back in. Well done people. Democracy in action.

I don't think they gave a crap. Labour is a party for people who work in the public services or on benifits. Mass immigration is the thing which has impoverished the working class more than anything the Tories have done.

 

[rascal]

Sorry, I just can't help victimising the wealthy and invulnerable in society. As opposed to these sponging layabouts:

"

Rosa Davies
5 hrs · Edited ·
I don't think able-bodied people understand the fear and threat and legitimate worry that the results of this election mean for a lot of disabled people. It's not that we're disappointed that our team didn't win. Disability groups I am a member of are literally posting numbers to the Samaritans and other helplines for members to phone.

People care even less than I thought they did. A Tory majority is far worse than expected. They're going to tax disability benefit (the same as reducing it) and they're going to tighten the definition as to who deserves to get it. It's not just money to us, or a pair of new jeans or whatever. It's the difference between leaving your house and not. It's a way to be less disabled by our impairments, a way to try to live our lives as best we can. Making disabled people poorer makes us more disabled. Money is access. It makes the circle labeled Things I Can't Do bigger and Things I Could Do smaller. And that first circle is so big to begin with.

Even if you agree with the idea that making the rich richer helps the poor, what is happening to disabled people in this country helps no one. Marginalising the disabled doesn't somehow improve things for anyone else. It makes it worse for the able-bodied too. Even if you are not caring for, a family member of, or friends with a disabled person, in the words of Richard Herring, "If you’re not disabled now, then one day you might be. When that happens you’ll want to go to the pub or get on public transport. You’ll want to be seen as a person, not as a disability. Purely out of selfishness you should be fighting for disabled rights. If you don’t, you are prejudiced against your future self. And your future self hates you and thinks you’re a [Poor language removed]."

How can we push back? It is important to fight back, to get active. We need to win allies. We need to set up an activist group so that I can get on Channel4 News and swear at a politician live on TV. I don't know what to do but I don't want to be passive."

========================================================================================

Shame on us.

Put yourself in the shoes of the obscenely wealthy for a change

 

[marty mcfly]

The way the libdem voters have gone over to ukip does show that most people voting for 3rd parties don't do it cos of policies (cos the libdems and ukip share none) but just as a protest vote.

I disagree. I think the lib dem vote went to labour and the labour vote went to UKIP

 

[Woolly Blue]

The Labour party played to their own gallery. They spoke about public sector workers as though no one else existed. They banged on about the NHS being in crisis, and that the Tories would wreck it, which anyone who uses it, (me for example), know from experience, is not true.

They needed voters like me to want to vote them in. And they said nothing to make me want to.

Now the usual suspects will jump on that, but the truth of the matter is, the winners of an election in the UK usually has to appeal to the mass, centre ground. They didnt.

Lob in the probable SNP factor, where Sturgeon almost gleefully said she would gladly lock the Tories out of power, without a single voter from England having a say in that, and the dye, in hindsight, was cast.

Indeed. My politics are to the left and that's how I voted, but, to be honest, I had no appetite for seeing Milliband, Balls and Harman in the cabinet. Lots of other labour supporters feel the same so getting Lib Dems to switch to Labour rather than Conservative was an uphill struggle.

 

[roydo]

No.

People aren't as naive as you'd like to think they are and the power of the press is diminishing anyway. If you keep looking for people to blame outside the party then you lessen your chances of fixing what's wrong. Yesterday the electorate looked at the options, ignored the weaker in society and rejected Labour.

It sounds cynical, but Labour has to find a way to convince people in marginals that there's something in it for them if they vote Labour. As the economy improves and peoples disposable income increases, they MIGHT be more amenable to vote for a better society rather than their wallet, but you can't rely on that.

Or, "Its the economy stupid".

As you say, people are not naive. And, rightly or wrongly, the Tories have a credit in the bank on that. Ed and Ed did not. I do not think anyone voted to ignore the weaker in society, but maybe thought a strongish economy is actually a better chance of delivering stuff.

 

[Clint Planet]

No.

No difference at all?