6 + 2 Point Deductions

[James Patrick]

An investigation that was unable to substantiate any allegations of wrongdoing.

The FA have safeguarding responsibilities that allow them to take action following allegations, so I have no problem with the actions undertaken by the FA in banning the player. And I don’t really agree that Everton or Player X could sue the FA due to the implementation of perfectly lawful safeguarding procedures.

However, nobody should be scared to highlight the fact that the allegations were unsubstantiated, or that the unsubstantiated allegations cost Everton tens of millions of pounds. We should be allowed to refer to these facts, and they should be considered genuine mitigating circumstances when you consider the impact that it had on our accounts.

Also notable that the FA did not take action against Yves Bissouma then of Brighton who had been arrested and bailed on a sexual assault charge. I'd be interested to know what the parameters are that apply and why they were treated differently ?

 

[TGW89]

About right? He must be a mole for the ESL. It's the only explanation.

 

[Jim Kirk]

Agreed. While all clubs were affected by COVID we had a double whammy with the war in Ukraine and sanctions. Now of course if Moshiri had been doing things in a sensible and above board way and making the club profitable then we’d have been fine.

But being deducted points for the incompetence of the owner when we gained no material sporting advantage is ridiculous. I mean if anyone wants to claim fielding a team of overpaid, slow and extremely average players as sporting advantage I’d like to see how they justify that. lol

Owner incompetence is the reason clubs get docked points. Tons of clubs have been done worse than Everton for similar issues (and some less so). Luton got hit with a 30 point penalty which caused them to drop into non-league, Derby got hit 21 points 2 years ago, Bury, Bolton, Wigan and Sheff Weds all got 12 points penalties. Leeds had a 10 point penalty dished out and then a further 15 point penalty for financial mismanagement a few weeks later. Birmingham got 9 for their breach. Reading have been penalised three straight seasons for FFP breaches, 16 points worth.

All points docked, all due to various degrees of financial mismanagement, none of it had anything to do with the fanbase. 10 is fairly par for the course for this sort of thing. The only surprise is the EPL are actually trying to enforce their rules now after years of ignoring them.

 

[Walken]

Owner incompetence is the reason clubs get docked points. Tons of clubs have been done worse than Everton for similar issues (and some less so). Luton got hit with a 30 point penalty which caused them to drop into non-league, Derby got hit 21 points 2 years ago, Bury, Bolton, Wigan and Sheff Weds all got 12 points penalties. Leeds had a 10 point penalty dished out and then a further 15 point penalty for financial mismanagement a few weeks later. Birmingham got 9 for their breach. Reading have been penalised three straight seasons for FFP breaches, 16 points worth.

All points docked, all due to various degrees of financial mismanagement, none of it had anything to do with the fanbase. 10 is fairly par for the course for this sort of thing. The only surprise is the EPL are actually trying to enforce their rules now after years of ignoring them.

Did you go on the forums of all those clubs celebrating the deductions and cheering on the likes of richard masters?

 

[Jim Kirk]

Did you go on the forums of all those clubs celebrating the deductions and cheering on the likes of richard masters?

No. Just pointing out the whole 'This is draconian unprecedented sanctions' narrative for the nonsense that it is. I'm interested in this topic, not to deride a club or laugh at misfortune, but because its important to football. My club nearly went out of existence due to poor financial management, yours is on the precipice - many smaller clubs without the safety net of a large fan base have done. FFP needs enforcing (as annoying as it is if your a super rich owner and as cartel in nature as it is) to stop clubs collapsing, and how it is enforced impacts more than just the club(s) under the microscope at any given moment.

If you look at any posts I've made on this topic, I have being nothing but balanced and wanting to inform and/or be informed about the issue.

Have a bit of extra interest because I have lived in the city for 35 years so its a topic with lots of family and friends who are Evertonians. The head in the sand 'we broke the rules but so what, give us our points back and 10 points is outrageously harsh' view though is simply wrong. Its fairly standard in terms of a sanction. The only non-standard thing about it is its the EPL, which historically never bothers with it, and wasn't bothering Everton with it either until it got their backs up by being lied to. Two years ago, Sheff Weds got 12 points for an FFP breach which was similar in nature to that of Evertons, but smaller in scale and was confused by a load of covid mitigations. Nobody said one thing about it. Why should it be fine for them but Everton (or any PL club) seem to think they should be somehow immune.

 

[GN!]

I doubt I really would have given this issue much thought if it was another club but yeah point deductions and the like don't really seem like a fair punishment considering that the stated objectives of all this stuff is to protect clubs for going under.

To me it seems like more appropriate remedies would be things like (dependent on severity or repetitions of breach)

-EPL needing to sanction transfers
-EPL oversight on operations
-EPL taking control of operations
-Forced sale from owners
-Transfer restrictions (not bans but potentially limited to sales, numbers of players, amount spend)
-Transfer bans if no progress is made after an agreed period of time.
-Exclusion of board members from clubs who discharge their duties inadequately

Obviously some of these are stronger penalties if the breaches are blantant.

The biggest issue is rightly or wrongly we operated under the assumption that the accounting treatment of certain items was correct and now that they have been rejected there was no opportunity to rectify as the period has passed for both charges (to be that is why the second breach notice is rough, we didnt know our treatment was rejected until after that period finished).

I think the sigurrdson situation definitely should have been included as a mitigating factor, as the split purpose of the loan as funds from that loan were partially used for the stadium. The USM sponsorship whilst not in writing was obviously on the cards due to the fact that it was already plastered on finch farm so there was a strong likelihood that this proposal was going to proceed.

I think the rules have been highlighted to be flawed largely because like anything the only test of them is when it comes time to apply.

All that said the owner and boards are cuplable for this the fact that the leaving board members and execs got such a substantial payout is insane, perhaps we can sue to recover that and help for this current period.

Can we claw back sigurrddsons wages now? or has the time passed. Just because we didnt earlier doesnt exclude future action?

 

[DanB90]

No. Just pointing out the whole 'This is draconian unprecedented sanctions' narrative for the nonsense that it is. I'm interested in this topic, not to deride a club or laugh at misfortune, but because its important to football. My club nearly went out of existence due to poor financial management, yours is on the precipice - many smaller clubs without the safety net of a large fan base have done. FFP needs enforcing (as annoying as it is if your a super rich owner and as cartel in nature as it is) to stop clubs collapsing, and how it is enforced impacts more than just the club(s) under the microscope at any given moment.

If you look at any posts I've made on this topic, I have being nothing but balanced and wanting to inform and/or be informed about the issue.

Have a bit of extra interest because I have lived in the city for 35 years so its a topic with lots of family and friends who are Evertonians. The head in the sand 'we broke the rules but so what, give us our points back and 10 points is outrageously harsh' view though is simply wrong. Its fairly standard in terms of a sanction. The only non-standard thing about it is its the EPL, which historically never bothers with it, and wasn't bothering Everton with it either until it got their backs up by being lied to. Two years ago, Sheff Weds got 12 points for an FFP breach which was similar in nature to that of Evertons, but smaller in scale and was confused by a load of covid mitigations. Nobody said one thing about it. Why should it be fine for them but Everton (or any PL club) seem to think they should be somehow immune.

Shut up Jim you big stinking cock end.

 

[PeregrineT]

No. Just pointing out the whole 'This is draconian unprecedented sanctions' narrative for the nonsense that it is. I'm interested in this topic, not to deride a club or laugh at misfortune, but because its important to football. My club nearly went out of existence due to poor financial management, yours is on the precipice - many smaller clubs without the safety net of a large fan base have done. FFP needs enforcing (as annoying as it is if your a super rich owner and as cartel in nature as it is) to stop clubs collapsing, and how it is enforced impacts more than just the club(s) under the microscope at any given moment.

If you look at any posts I've made on this topic, I have being nothing but balanced and wanting to inform and/or be informed about the issue.

Have a bit of extra interest because I have lived in the city for 35 years so its a topic with lots of family and friends who are Evertonians. The head in the sand 'we broke the rules but so what, give us our points back and 10 points is outrageously harsh' view though is simply wrong. Its fairly standard in terms of a sanction. The only non-standard thing about it is its the EPL, which historically never bothers with it, and wasn't bothering Everton with it either until it got their backs up by being lied to. Two years ago, Sheff Weds got 12 points for an FFP breach which was similar in nature to that of Evertons, but smaller in scale and was confused by a load of covid mitigations. Nobody said one thing about it. Why should it be fine for them but Everton (or any PL club) seem to think they should be somehow immune.

"This is draconian unprecedented sanctions" Uh what? How is something thats never been done before, never to that level, and was was made up only in August to then be changed the next year not both unprecedented and draconian? Seems the very definition.

Further, my condolenses, but this is not the same situation, this isnt a case where the club couldnt afford to lose it(if only just). If a rich man wants to throw all of his money away, who cares. The PL does, they wont allow it unless they are a few chosen ones.

"Fairly standard in terms of a sanction" BS. What standard? It didnt exist prior to the rules being broken and was only whispered in hushed tones to the commission the day before "trial". Standard means something that is regular, normal, used over and over.

 

[mahermi1]

Owner incompetence is the reason clubs get docked points. Tons of clubs have been done worse than Everton for similar issues (and some less so). Luton got hit with a 30 point penalty which caused them to drop into non-league, Derby got hit 21 points 2 years ago, Bury, Bolton, Wigan and Sheff Weds all got 12 points penalties. Leeds had a 10 point penalty dished out and then a further 15 point penalty for financial mismanagement a few weeks later. Birmingham got 9 for their breach. Reading have been penalised three straight seasons for FFP breaches, 16 points worth.

All points docked, all due to various degrees of financial mismanagement, none of it had anything to do with the fanbase. 10 is fairly par for the course for this sort of thing. The only surprise is the EPL are actually trying to enforce their rules now after years of ignoring them.

Aye Captain..

 

[Hendi]

I don't know how to keep the issue raised and in the spotlight, I think we have broken the rules but this on field points deduction which effects us fans needs to be part of a media script. Currently only a handful of politicians and pundits want to challenge it and accept that the 'Pyramid' is always right and untouchable.

It might not do any good but I've sent Masters an email asking him to explain the comments. I doubt he will read it but feel pretty useless sitting here doing nothing.

Subject: Clarification and Concerns Regarding Recent Remarks on Everton and Nottingham Forest

Dear Mr. Masters,

I trust this letter finds you well. I am writing to express concerns regarding your recent remarks during the hearing with the Culture, Media, and Sports committee in Parliament, where you referred to Everton and Nottingham Forest as 'small clubs.' As a dedicated football enthusiast, I believe it is essential to seek clarification on your definition of big and small clubs.

Both Everton and Nottingham Forest boast rich histories, having played pivotal roles in the development of football. Everton, as one of the founding clubs of the Football League, and both clubs, with substantial fan bases, contribute significantly to the sport's tradition. Their trophy-laden pasts further underscore their impact on the footballing world.

In light of your comments, I am keen to understand the criteria you employ to categorize clubs as big or small. It seems pertinent, especially given the substantial historical contributions and passionate fan bases associated with Everton and Nottingham Forest.

Furthermore, there is growing concern among football enthusiasts regarding the perceived discrepancy in disciplinary actions. The lack of sanctions against Manchester City and Chelsea, despite substantial breaches of rules, raises questions about transparency and fairness. If the criteria for categorizing clubs influences such decisions, it is crucial to address these concerns openly.

I appreciate your attention to these matters and kindly request a response directly from you, as it is essential to foster transparency and maintain the integrity of the Premier League.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,

You're right, he won't read it.

 

[WestStandLower]

Owner incompetence is the reason clubs get docked points. Tons of clubs have been done worse than Everton for similar issues (and some less so). Luton got hit with a 30 point penalty which caused them to drop into non-league, Derby got hit 21 points 2 years ago, Bury, Bolton, Wigan and Sheff Weds all got 12 points penalties. Leeds had a 10 point penalty dished out and then a further 15 point penalty for financial mismanagement a few weeks later. Birmingham got 9 for their breach. Reading have been penalised three straight seasons for FFP breaches, 16 points worth.

All points docked, all due to various degrees of financial mismanagement, none of it had anything to do with the fanbase. 10 is fairly par for the course for this sort of thing. The only surprise is the EPL are actually trying to enforce their rules now after years of ignoring them.

Clubs get deducted points for a variety of reasons that isn’t just restricted to owner incompetence.

For instance Arsenal &Man Utd for that infamous game at Old Trafford. In non league it’s commonplace because of an administrative issue.

Most of the clubs you mentioned had points deducted not for one financial misdemeanour but a couple.Often they aren’t FFP issues but fall under other regulations and in near enough every instance ( save Portsmouth) have been under the EFL Regulations not the PL.

Quite a few are for failing to pay wages, going into administration, failing to exit administration yes they are financial and often down to owners incompetence but splitting hairs those clubs that fail to exit administration accord with league regulation aren’t under the control of the owners but for all intents and purposes are being run by an administrator .

Of course many are linked to the owner running out of money or indeed not having the resources in the first place but in many instances owners in their desire to support a club do so through club association which is blind love. Is that incompetence?

Irrespective save Everton every club that has suffered a FFP points deduction was as I say under EFL rules . These rules have been agreed by their clubs meaning any IC has a defined tariff. No such tariff exists in the PL

So let’s look at the other football body that clubs are linked with. UEFA.

They have a defined tariff and of course it’s not as straight forward in points terms but they don’t see it as almost folly by imposing fine nor do they press the nuclear button for a single breech they almost always fine a club. The irony is the very riches clubs get hit in the pocket. Whereas the reason given by the IC not to impose a fine was pathetic. That for me a non Everton fan seems far more appropriate possibly linked to a sporting sanction such as a transfer ban or reduction in squad sizes.

Without doubt 12 point is excessive and in PL terms draconian.

 

[ToffeeTim]

No. Just pointing out the whole 'This is draconian unprecedented sanctions' narrative for the nonsense that it is. I'm interested in this topic, not to deride a club or laugh at misfortune, but because its important to football. My club nearly went out of existence due to poor financial management, yours is on the precipice - many smaller clubs without the safety net of a large fan base have done. FFP needs enforcing (as annoying as it is if your a super rich owner and as cartel in nature as it is) to stop clubs collapsing, and how it is enforced impacts more than just the club(s) under the microscope at any given moment.

If you look at any posts I've made on this topic, I have being nothing but balanced and wanting to inform and/or be informed about the issue.

Have a bit of extra interest because I have lived in the city for 35 years so its a topic with lots of family and friends who are Evertonians. The head in the sand 'we broke the rules but so what, give us our points back and 10 points is outrageously harsh' view though is simply wrong. Its fairly standard in terms of a sanction. The only non-standard thing about it is its the EPL, which historically never bothers with it, and wasn't bothering Everton with it either until it got their backs up by being lied to. Two years ago, Sheff Weds got 12 points for an FFP breach which was similar in nature to that of Evertons, but smaller in scale and was confused by a load of covid mitigations. Nobody said one thing about it. Why should it be fine for them but Everton (or any PL club) seem to think they should be somehow immune.

Financial regulation hasn't stopped clubs getting into significant financial trouble

It's almost like the rules don't achieve what we're told they exist for. It's almost like they aren't fit for purpose.

And of course the penalty is draconian. It's the biggest in the history of top flight football. How can that be justified for a technical accounting breach for a club building a new ground?

 

[Dymak]

Also notable that the FA did not take action against Yves Bissouma then of Brighton who had been arrested and bailed on a sexual assault charge. I'd be interested to know what the parameters are that apply and why they were treated differently ?

The difference is probably due to the alleged victim being a child in the case of Player X. However, Adam Johnson continued to play for Sunderland whilst he was on bail for an allegation made by a child in 2015, an allegation that saw him charged and convicted in a court of law.

I imagine the FA simply updated their safeguarding protocol since the 2015 Adam Johnson case, which they have every right to do. In addition to reducing risk, they probably didn’t like the songs being sung about Johnson, some of which were rather crude to say the least. We would have had a similar situation with Player X, had he been allowed to continue playing on the pitch.

But the allegations against Johnson were substantiated, allowing for a charge and a conviction. The allegations against Player X were unsubstantiated, and cost Everton tens of millions of pounds.

He was our most expensive player! He contributed to dozens of goals and assists at Everton. His suspension derailed our performance on the pitch, and prevented us from selling someone that was easily worth in excess of 15 million.

No unsubstantiated allegations = no breach!

No war in Ukraine = no breach!

No new stadium = no breach!

The truth is Everton have an overwhelming amount of mitigating circumstances, and the fact that they have been dismissed is a real disgrace. It has more to do with the PL using Everton to lay down the law within English football than the implementation of any fair or transparent procedure. The PL need to rectify this ASAP!

 

[RD2910]

No. Just pointing out the whole 'This is draconian unprecedented sanctions' narrative for the nonsense that it is. I'm interested in this topic, not to deride a club or laugh at misfortune, but because its important to football. My club nearly went out of existence due to poor financial management, yours is on the precipice - many smaller clubs without the safety net of a large fan base have done. FFP needs enforcing (as annoying as it is if your a super rich owner and as cartel in nature as it is) to stop clubs collapsing, and how it is enforced impacts more than just the club(s) under the microscope at any given moment.

If you look at any posts I've made on this topic, I have being nothing but balanced and wanting to inform and/or be informed about the issue.

Have a bit of extra interest because I have lived in the city for 35 years so its a topic with lots of family and friends who are Evertonians. The head in the sand 'we broke the rules but so what, give us our points back and 10 points is outrageously harsh' view though is simply wrong. Its fairly standard in terms of a sanction. The only non-standard thing about it is its the EPL, which historically never bothers with it, and wasn't bothering Everton with it either until it got their backs up by being lied to. Two years ago, Sheff Weds got 12 points for an FFP breach which was similar in nature to that of Evertons, but smaller in scale and was confused by a load of covid mitigations. Nobody said one thing about it. Why should it be fine for them but Everton (or any PL club) seem to think they should be somehow immune.

Feels a bit like it might push clubs towards collapse, not going to lie.

And it's quite obvious that you've read the bare minimum about those points deductions, or the reason for there being the punishment of points deductions available for teams going into administration.

 

[PITA]

No. Just pointing out the whole 'This is draconian unprecedented sanctions' narrative for the nonsense that it is. I'm interested in this topic, not to deride a club or laugh at misfortune, but because its important to football. My club nearly went out of existence due to poor financial management, yours is on the precipice - many smaller clubs without the safety net of a large fan base have done. FFP needs enforcing (as annoying as it is if your a super rich owner and as cartel in nature as it is) to stop clubs collapsing, and how it is enforced impacts more than just the club(s) under the microscope at any given moment.

If you look at any posts I've made on this topic, I have being nothing but balanced and wanting to inform and/or be informed about the issue.

Have a bit of extra interest because I have lived in the city for 35 years so its a topic with lots of family and friends who are Evertonians. The head in the sand 'we broke the rules but so what, give us our points back and 10 points is outrageously harsh' view though is simply wrong. Its fairly standard in terms of a sanction. The only non-standard thing about it is its the EPL, which historically never bothers with it, and wasn't bothering Everton with it either until it got their backs up by being lied to. Two years ago, Sheff Weds got 12 points for an FFP breach which was similar in nature to that of Evertons, but smaller in scale and was confused by a load of covid mitigations. Nobody said one thing about it. Why should it be fine for them but Everton (or any PL club) seem to think they should be somehow immune.

Who do you support?