6 + 2 Point Deductions

[blue to the bone]

….which might be ok given Forest will also have points deducted.

It's not OK. It's a ridiculous punishment

 

[bernie inn]

All back, process has been an absolute farce. If we don’t get them all back then go legal

 

[Fralahna]

I don’t agree and think that any points deduction is unwarranted. I’m not prepared to accept a 5 point deduction for this “crime”

I think you're right. The PL have hit us with a point deduction fully expecting us to fight back, whatever the deduction was. Because its 10, anything else we get back would be seen as a win by many. Its a classic bartering technique. Start with a ridiculous offer, then work it out from there. Everyone leaves thinking they got a deal but the one really getting a deal would be the PL. The PL want to make an example of us because of this nonsense rule but a point deduction is disproportionate to the offence.

When also looking at spurs in the mid 90s, they got slapped with 12 points for financial irregularities but that was later revoked. One of their arguments was that the people responsible for the financial irregularity were no longer at the club. Sounds familiar. And considering Moshiri is trying to sell, based on that alone a point deduction is excessive. They are literally punishing the fans with this deduction, but they wouldn't want to do that for the PL6. Then we have all our mitigating factors like the Ukraine war and covid, factors Masters has said has made his job harder. Didnt consider them for us though...

Yeah all 10 back otherwise its not a real win for us.

 

[WestStandLower]

What sanction do you think would be the correct one for fraudulent accounting and hiding payments? Expulsion?

Football is littered with clubs paying players and agents off the books that’s a basic fact . Even recently HMRc have investigated and issued significant financial penalties against the majority of PL clubs

HMRC more than doubles unpaid tax recovered from football clubs

HMRC more than doubled the amount of unpaid tax that it recovered from UK football clubs in the past year as part of a crackdown on the sport.

www.cityam.com

Recently Brighton were fined by the FA for understating payments to agents

Chelsea will possibly, I say possibly because I am not sure what evidence either the FA and or the PL have actually seen other than the issues discovered following Clearlake’s DD but from what I have read much is circumstantial and on the face of it points a finger but will that be considered to be on the balance of probability?

My guess would be that a points deduction is likely but expulsion is highly unlikely but even then the fact that Chelsea self reported will be a significant mitigating factor

Then you can talk about Cities alleged misdemeanour which is a whole different kettle of fish

 

[ToffeeTim]

If I were a betting man I would expect the announcement to be made tomorrow. Whilst the IC , despite what some feel, won’t be dictated to by the PL board the commission members will be acutely aware of the impact of their announcement.

I would be surprised if the IC will change the numbers in terms of the £19.5 million gap and sorry I don’t think that a lot of the arguments re mitigation are compelling.

I have alway said that the sanction should never have been 10 points but unfortunately there are those sitting on the PL board that are fixated on a sporting sanction by way of a points deduction being appropriate. The appeal board will be well aware of the political landscape but I do expect that 10 points are reduced down potentially to 5 maybe even 3.

The potential suspension of any points would be a worry with the second charge incoming and whilst we have no idea of the numbers for 22/23 and as I said earlier I can’t see the £19.5 million being reduced as much because the ability to enter additional evidence at an appeal is limited but at the hearing for the second charge the club should have taken the hint from the IC at the first hearing suggesting that the sum paid by way of transfer levy could have been a mitigating factor had the argument been constructed in a different way.

As I say we don’t know the 22/23 numbers part of the argument re the 21/22 impact was that there was a downward trend if that is replicated then I would suspect that could justify a suspended points sanction but if the 3 year numbers go above £124.5 million that would probably open the door for a current season deduction.

Having said all that I personally think that if there hadn’t been a points deduction you would be a good 15-20 points away from the drop zone.

FFP was never meant to be this way the riches in the PL make it highly unlikely that unless there are massive outside shockwave to finances that a clubs very existence would be put in jeopardy. It really is a sledge hammer to crack a nut if no other change had been made the £105 million should have been increased along with inflation.

I can’t imagine a PL without Everton but then I can’t imagine an Everton without Goodison.

The fact we are building a stadium, and the impact on commercial deals of Ukraine/Russia, are at the very least worthy of serious consideration as mitigating factors.

Some of the other things put forward were less obvious, but I think we had a couple of very valid points that should have been taken into consideration.

 

[kenada_blue]

Football is littered with clubs paying players and agents off the books that’s a basic fact . Even recently HMRc have investigated and issued significant financial penalties against the majority of PL clubs

HMRC more than doubles unpaid tax recovered from football clubs

HMRC more than doubled the amount of unpaid tax that it recovered from UK football clubs in the past year as part of a crackdown on the sport.

www.cityam.com

Recently Brighton were fined by the FA for understating payments to agents

Chelsea will possibly, I say possibly because I am not sure what evidence either the FA and or the PL have actually seen other than the issues discovered following Clearlake’s DD but from what I have read much is circumstantial and on the face of it points a finger but will that be considered to be on the balance of probability?

My guess would be that a points deduction is likely but expulsion is highly unlikely but even then the fact that Chelsea self reported will be a significant mitigating factor

Then you can talk about Cities alleged misdemeanour which is a whole different kettle of fish

Hence why nowt will happen to city cos of the can of worms it'll open

 

[MrGrumpy]

Basically if we win we get all 10 back because they have accepted the mitigation an we arnt in breech so no deduction

 

[TyphooToffee]

We should be given a detailed explanation of how they arrived at their decision this time.

If it is different from the original ten point deduction there will be a reason, and we are entitled to know what it is.

That might give us an idea of how they arrived at ten points in the first place, a figure which seems to, and may have been
plucked from fresh air.

Remember, the PL called for 12 originally

 

[msb]

What sanction do you think would be the correct one for fraudulent accounting and hiding payments? Expulsion?

Fraudulent accounting has its own sanctions in law and what you just posted is tantamount to libel. The directors past or present are liable for fraudulent accounting and could be jailed if serious enough.

What we have is a difference of opinion on what is allowable expenditure in a private club, to determine losses according to arbitrary rules, not laws of the land.

Sorry for being pedantic, but it is bad enough as it is, without coughing up to fraud.

 

[Simon Buttle]

Hence why nowt will happen to city cos of the can of worms it'll open

There is no doubt it will open a can of worms that could possibly bring the downfall of the entire league structure but at the same time if they do nothing whatsoever then the RS and Utd will literally declare war against the PL. It will be interesting to watch.

 

[Saint Domingo]

My prediction is some points back but enough to keep us firmly in the relegation battle especially with the second charge also now having validity as the first one wasn’t overturned. They know that even if they water this charge down significantly on mitigations and technicalities as long as they establish that there was a points penalty for this then the second charge will stand and they’ll use that to hammer the punishment they wanted all along.

Once we’re relegated in the summer, there’ll be a review of regulations and no other team will ever receive a points based penalty for P&S ever again.

 

[kenada_blue]

There is no doubt it will open a can of worms that could possibly bring the downfall of the entire league structure but at the same time if they do nothing whatsoever then the RS and Utd will literally declare war against the PL. It will be interesting to watch.

Oh definitely. It's why Masters job is on the line with this whole PSR stuff.

The league will have on going court cases for the next decade.

 

[DuncansPigeons]

Masters said in the select committee something along the lines of “whatever the deduction of points may be” after the appeal.

The PL have quite clearly indicated at all points they want points removed from Everton so it would be a massive climb down to see us given between 5-10 back.

However by threatening the legality of their sanction, Everton not being afraid of legal action etc that would require full disclosure of all documents etc puts the league in a very difficult position. Everton are opening up a can of worms for the league in their pursuit of city who will 100% be suing the PL in every court available

 

[Toffe3m4n]

Masters said in the select committee something along the lines of “whatever the deduction of points may be” after the appeal.

The PL have quite clearly indicated at all points they want points removed from Everton so it would be a massive climb down to see us given between 5-10 back.

However by threatening the legality of their sanction, Everton not being afraid of legal action etc that would require full disclosure of all documents etc puts the league in a very difficult position. Everton are opening up a can of worms for the league in their pursuit of city who will 100% be suing the PL in every court available

Someone else on Twitter suggested this as well and it kinda makes sense. All comes down to whether Masters/the PL are willing to navigate that minefield should we decide to take it to the high court.

 

[MrGrumpy]

My prediction is some points back but enough to keep us firmly in the relegation battle especially with the second charge also now having validity as the first one wasn’t overturned. They know that even if they water this charge down significantly on mitigations and technicalities as long as they establish that there was a points penalty for this then the second charge will stand and they’ll use that to hammer the punishment they wanted all along.

Once we’re relegated in the summer, there’ll be a review of regulations and no other team will ever receive a points based penalty for P&S ever again.

Explain how we only get some points back?
If we win then we arnt guilty