97/98 season

[argietoffee]

The Brian Clough comment is a really good one. It's so true that many of the clubs we think of as "big" in some way were really just mid-sized clubs who had one truly great manager who made them far bigger than the sum of their parts. Clough, love him or hate him, was a genius. He did this for TWO clubs, both of whom have achieved squat all since his departure.

In that sense, maybe a truly big club is one that has had at least two truly great managers (or two truly great periods).

If that were the criteria, then we are obviously a big club, having had multiple great periods since the founding of the Football League and two legendary managers. Similarly, Arsenal - who had Herbert Chapman (another genius because he did what Clough did at two clubs when you take Huddersfield into account), George Graham (who was a great manager for the best part of a decade despite his corruption), and Wenger. Huddersfield miss out on our criteria - and I doubt even their fans could argue. Forest, Derby, and Leeds also miss out on this metric, because I don't think anybody could consider Howard Wilkinson's success a sustained period of greatness on any level. It was, effectively, a very happy blip.

Spurs, meanwhile, sort of find their level among the big clubs if we use this criteria. Clearly, they are a big, historical club - but they really have only had one legendary manager. No, Terry Venables doesn't count. They have had only one true period of greatness under Bill Nicholson, though Keith Burkinshaw is underrated.

Chelsea are similar, I think. They had Mourinho's era of domination, but what else was sustained? I don't think Dave Sexton quite joins the greats, a bit like Wilkinson, and Conte and Ancelotti were sacked too soon to dominate.

City have had Guardiola, but who else? Joe Mercer. His record was indeed great, so on this criteria they definitely qualify. But yeah, we're splitting hairs slightly when referencing only managers. It really is about having eras.

Super post again.
Was not aware Chapman had the Clough - two clubs success - about him.

The two periods of sustained success is a great measure. Spurs come up well short on this as do Chelsea and City.

Liverpool, Arsenal, United and us. The Big 4. In ascending level of importance, obviously.

 

[Kever10]

I can understand this sentiment. There's probably a sense that if all was right with the world the biggest clubs would comprise the top flight - and there is always a sense that "something has gone badly wrong" when a big club is in a lower division. Obviously, on the flip side, social mobility is a good thing and small clubs need to have something to aspire to. Meritocracy is good (even if a lot of it is really just about which club has money and an astute, ambitious board at the time).

Buy yeah, in terms of "size", I think the "ideal" or "optimal" Premier League of 20 clubs would include Everton, Arsenal, Aston Villa, Chelsea, Derby County, Leeds United, Leicester City, Manchester City, Manchester United, Newcastle United, Nottingham Forest, QPR, Sheffield United, Sheffield Wednesday, Southampton, Sunderland, Tottenham Hotspur, WBA, West Ham, and Wolves.

I see what you did there.

Great work.

 

[argietoffee]

I see what you did there.

Great work.

Just after spotting it. Superb!!!

 

[Jamo Martinez]

I was just watching sky sports and they were showing the final game of the season with the relegation decider where we played Coventry and Chelsea played Bolton. Something I never realised until I watched the programme was the commentators were saying that the Chelsea fans wanted Bolton to score and equalise and the Chelsea fans were booing their own side for not letting Bolton score at the end.

is there a specific reason why Chelsea fans wanted us to be relegated? I don’t believe I have ever come across anyone saying they hate Chelsea fans but I would have thought that if they wanted us to be relegated that we would have some kind of hatred towards them but we seem to hate spurs and Newcastle fans more.

maybe some older generation evertonians can shed some light on this and explain.

Personally, Chelsea are the only London club I've never liked at all.

 

[4737carlin]

We owe Gianluca Vialli a huge debt of gratitude. He had a Cup Winners' Cup final versus Stuttgart to prepare for that week, and still he made a point of telling his team to go out, give their all, and win.

So much respect for Gianluca, after the game he said it was inportant to him that they won in the balance of fairness, they played a professional game.

On a side note the end of the following season we played away at Southampton, Charton needed us to get a result to stay up but we just rolled over for Southampton sending Charlton down, bit sly that from us, when we counted on another team they turned up but when somone was counting on us we didnt

 

[4737carlin]

Yes all good points here. The main stand was built shortly after our one was built, but theirs near enough bankrupted them until Matthew Harding took over.

To the young'uns this is what their ground looked like mid-90s:

View attachment 103646

By the time they won the cup in 97 they were giving it large despite winning the square root of naff all by that point. So like you say Jealousy.

Great pic that, i remember there always used to be a line of disabled blue cars behind the goal on the gravel

 

[Drico]

So much respect for Gianluca, after the game he said it was inportant to him that they won in the balance of fairness, they played a professional game.

On a side note the end of the following season we played away at Southampton, Charton needed us to get a result to stay up but we just rolled over for Southampton sending Charlton down, bit sly that from us, when we counted on another team they turned up but when somone was counting on us we didnt

We have form for that. Didn't we do something similar to Ipswich, I think it was, in 1985 or 86? Of course, if a team puts themselves at the mercy of others it is their own fault really. But Vialli owed us nothing and, as you say, thought that the integrity of the league was worth playing for. How lucky for us that he was the Chelsea manager on that day. His own fans were baying for a Bolton goal but he defied them. A winner.

 

[Darth Toffeeman]

Can’t remember the year but I remember watching Tony cottee miss a penalty at Stamford bridge in the cup and we lost. I remember at the time feeling like that was the beginning of the end. Don’t think we’ve ever really ragained our status as a club since then. Don’t know why I remember that point in particular but it felt really significant at the time.

Same here. I think it was 91? Dennis Wise said something to Cottee before he took it if I remember correctly.

I too saw that moment as the start of the real decline. We have had some positive moments for a couple of seasons here and there, but no real sustained quality for almost 3 decades now. Hopefully that is all about to change.

 

[Drico]

Just thinking, I've left out one great club from my optimal Premier League of "big clubs".


Yes, you are right:

Ipswich Town.

By my criteria, they have had two great managers: Alf Ramsey and Bobby Robson. Welcome Tractor Boys!

 

[Cork Evertonian]

Personally, Chelsea are the only London club I've never liked at all.

50 50 i think between Chelsea and Millwall for me. Chelsea have attracted, a more cosmopolitan/international fanbase in recent years. But traditionally Chelseas core support was the same as Millwalls, ie a crowd of right wing/national front supporting anti social thugs. For a city of Londons size they have just one genuinely huge club, and that's Arsenal. Spurs are a big club as well to be fair, but they wouldn't be as big as Arsenal in my opinion.

 

[edge]

I was just watching sky sports and they were showing the final game of the season with the relegation decider where we played Coventry and Chelsea played Bolton. Something I never realised until I watched the programme was the commentators were saying that the Chelsea fans wanted Bolton to score and equalise and the Chelsea fans were booing their own side for not letting Bolton score at the end.

is there a specific reason why Chelsea fans wanted us to be relegated? I don’t believe I have ever come across anyone saying they hate Chelsea fans but I would have thought that if they wanted us to be relegated that we would have some kind of hatred towards them but we seem to hate spurs and Newcastle fans more.

maybe some older generation evertonians can shed some light on this and explain.

It was the entire country not just Chelsea who wanted us down, unlike most we had been in the top division most of are history, so I think they wanted us to taste it,
Plus being scouse , that just put the cap on it.
Cant think of a time when we havnt been involved when i have paid more than a passing interest in who goes down.
Might laugh when the barcodes have gone down but to be honest when its the likes of Man city , Sunderland I have felt a bit sorry about going down as I have them down as proper supporters in my mind.
Dont really know the criteria for what makes a proper fan in my head really.
I would like leeds to go down this year with Newcastle but cant see it happening.

 

[davids]

50 50 i think between Chelsea and Millwall for me. Chelsea have attracted, a more cosmopolitan/international fanbase in recent years. But traditionally Chelseas core support was the same as Millwalls, ie a crowd of right wing/national front supporting anti social thugs. For a city of Londons size they have just one genuinely huge club, and that's Arsenal. Spurs are a big club as well to be fair, but they wouldn't be as big as Arsenal in my opinion.

Think some of the Chelsea animosity towards us was down to the fact their 'headhunters' never came away from Goodison with a result.

 

[Dwight K Schrute]

Jealousy basically.

Its hard to fathom now, but Chelsea were a poxy little club playing at a woeful ground and with a terrible reputation of being thugs until the mid 90s. Think similar to Wimbledon.

Then suddenly, they had an influx of cash and a few Superstar players joined when they had Glen Hoddle as manager, starting with an aging Ruud Gullit, and in a matter of maybe 4 years or so, had started to climb and attract big names from abroad like Vialli and Zola, and changed their image and reputation to the rich, suave international playboy Chelsea they have been since. A few cup finals, a European Cup Winners Cup win, and a giant new main stand built, they managed to attract Abramovic, and the rest as they say is history.

It really can be as simple and as quick as that, or at least it used to be before FFP tried to eliminate that possibility for other teams going forward. But yeah, they went from nothing to 1 of the biggest teams in the world in just over 10 years.

Put it this way, prior to Gullit, Vialli, Zola, Petrescu and DiMatteo, they had Dennis Wise, Vinnie Jones and Paul Furlong, and had Mark Stein and John Spencer (yes THAT John Spencer) up front. And Dave Beasant in goal, with cars parked haphazardly only yards behind him.

So yeah, my guess would be jealousy, and wanting 1 of the big boys out of the picture. Bear in mind, at that point, we had won the league and Cup within the previous 10 years, and only Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool had done that in the same time frame.

It's easy to forget how far we have fallen in people's estimations, but don't let Sky TV fool you. We ate and always have been huge. We just have a terrible knack of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Spot-on, but you forgot Leeds.

 

[matty1878]

Jealousy basically.

Its hard to fathom now, but Chelsea were a poxy little club playing at a woeful ground and with a terrible reputation of being thugs until the mid 90s. Think similar to Wimbledon.

Then suddenly, they had an influx of cash and a few Superstar players joined when they had Glen Hoddle as manager, starting with an aging Ruud Gullit, and in a matter of maybe 4 years or so, had started to climb and attract big names from abroad like Vialli and Zola, and changed their image and reputation to the rich, suave international playboy Chelsea they have been since. A few cup finals, a European Cup Winners Cup win, and a giant new main stand built, they managed to attract Abramovic, and the rest as they say is history.

It really can be as simple and as quick as that, or at least it used to be before FFP tried to eliminate that possibility for other teams going forward. But yeah, they went from nothing to 1 of the biggest teams in the world in just over 10 years.

Put it this way, prior to Gullit, Vialli, Zola, Petrescu and DiMatteo, they had Dennis Wise, Vinnie Jones and Paul Furlong, and had Mark Stein and John Spencer (yes THAT John Spencer) up front. And Dave Beasant in goal, with cars parked haphazardly only yards behind him.

So yeah, my guess would be jealousy, and wanting 1 of the big boys out of the picture. Bear in mind, at that point, we had won the league and Cup within the previous 10 years, and only Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool had done that in the same time frame.

It's easy to forget how far we have fallen in people's estimations, but don't let Sky TV fool you. We ate and always have been huge. We just have a terrible knack of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

this

 

[voodoobloo]

Absolutely super post.

I think when Walter had his players sold from under him - there was no denying then that we were old hat. With Moyes too a couple of times - maybe between 2005 and 2009 - relatively little investment and we were very, very close although the football often left a bit to be desired. If Mosh had landed then........

If my auntie had balls she´d not be my auntie, I suppose.

I am so happy for my eldest lad - a massive blue who is 13. He is living from match to match at the moment. So excited after so many years of misery and utter dross. And he keeps saying - you said we we will come good!!!

Must be dusty in my office!