2024/25 Abdoulaye Doucoure

[GoldenToffee]

It’s needed

Just removing Keane Doucoure Gueye from the team would do wonders for any manager who wants to play any sort of possession game.

Coleman can’t stay fit and can’t handle the ball well enough anyway. Young will need to go.

DCL and the loan signings are the obvious ones to address. Mangala looks decent and I’m interested in seeing Broja.

I’d love to see us make this clean sweep out the squad in the summer.

It's a fantastic opportunity to enter into a new era without a squad packed full of proven massive underperformers each locked to the club on multi year contracts worth millions per year.

Doucoure, Keane, Coleman, Young and Gueye alone saves the club almost £25 million(!) per year - utter insanity.

Replace Gueye with £20m-ish Mangala, Coleman & Young with Patterson or a new right back, and we don't need any further like-for-like replacements as we've already got O'Brien, McNeil or Ndiaye as the 10 and Tim ready to push on in the middle. Garner too.

Obviously substantial funds would need to be spent on a proven striker as we simply cannot go into next year with Beto and Chermiti.

What an opportunity for the club to invest and this time get it more right than wrong.

 

[Neiler]

….amazing stat. Given that period of time it can’t be a coincidence and must reflect his impact when in the team.

We all know him well enough by now, he’s not very good in possession but is effective without the ball. Maybe he’s the one that best fits with his teammates. I do think it’ll be progress when we’re winning games with him on the bench.

Dyche has to find that formula.

In pragmatic terms you are right mate, hes touching his mid 30's and possession and control in the middle is something we can improve as we look to progress and you always have to move on.

He has skills and competences though that add to the team - if you look at the last two games we conceded 2 goals both coming from scrappy play in the six yard box - compare that to previous three, were we were largely over run through the channel and conceded 13. We also haven't thrown away a lead since he's been in the engine room, and brought home 4 points in 2.

Begs the question, what do people want style or substance. A lot of what he does is unacknowledged. I thought he was excellent in the second half yesterday - not so much the first.

 

[catcherintherye]

….amazing stat. Given that period of time it can’t be a coincidence and must reflect his impact when in the team.

We all know him well enough by now, he’s not very good in possession but is effective without the ball. Maybe he’s the one that best fits with his teammates. I do think it’ll be progress when we’re winning games with him on the bench.

Dyche has to find that formula.

I always take notice of those stats too. We all watch the game and have opinions, but we all have our biases. Id say over longer periods those stats are really significant. It's a lot of what Moneyball is actually about, being guided by stats even when it seems to jar with experience.

There is a legitimate question as to whether he gets another contract beyond this season, but whats factually the case is we have achieved much better results with him in the team. I'd say he remains very mobile and physical, is a top player to compete against and helps others in that way. It often looks very awkward for him, but he is quite effective.

I didn't think he was very good yesterday, but thought he played well at Leicester and gave us a lot better protection. It's a conundrum for the manager, but all the while he is in the team, and we are not losing, he will keep his place.

 

[catcherintherye]

In pragmatic terms you are right mate, hes touching his mid 30's and possession and control in the middle is something we can improve as we look to progress and you always have to move on.

He has skills and competences though that add to the team - if you look at the last two games we conceded 2 goals both coming from scrappy play in the six yard box - compare that to previous three, were we were largely over run through the channel and conceded 13. We also haven't thrown away a lead since he's been in the engine room, and brought home 4 points in 2.

Begs the question, what do people want style or substance. A lot of what he does in unacknowledged. I thought he was excellent in the second half yesterday - not so much the first.

I've mentioned it a little above, but this is the core of Moneyball. Often people think moneyball is buying young foreign players (often for big money). Moneyball is really about taking decisions that may look strange, but give you statistically better outcomes.


Like imagine that scene with the scouts. People saying "he can't pass" "he's 33" "he's lumbered" "his technique is bad" and Brad Pitt saying "we win 57% more points with him in the team" (that's a made up number but you get my gist). For whatever reason, he clearly makes a difference.

My own view, is Dyche will probably have to rotate his midfielders, including in game, which is not natural to him, but if he can get it right, we can be really effective in that area. Yesterday Gana coming off the bench really helped, and we can potentially get more out of him if he isn't playing 90 minutes each game.

 

[knowing your history]

Won't find any disagreement from me. Played for a contract and went back to plop. Has scored some big goals for us however, it's not binary.

12 months ago he was still vitally important for Dycheball and had to play every game for it to work.

I don't see it anymore.

He's only actually scored one prem goal in 2024, Gana has scored more than that and he isn't picked for his goal scoring prowess.

With Ndiaye's impact and McNeill looking good and also a scoring threat at number 10 the team have moved on and imo he shouldn't be above the likes of Tim and Garner for that 8 role as I assume Gana and Mangala will rotate as the DM.

I'd let him go in January if he gets a decent offer from the Middle East.

 

[Neiler]

I've mentioned it a little above, but this is the core of Moneyball. Often people think moneyball is buying young foreign players (often for big money). Moneyball is really about taking decisions that may look strange, but give you statistically better outcomes.


Like imagine that scene with the scouts. People saying "he can't pass" "he's 33" "he's lumbered" "his technique is bad" and Brad Pitt saying "we win 57% more points with him in the team" (that's a made up number but you get my gist). For whatever reason, he clearly makes a difference.

My own view, is Dyche will probably have to rotate his midfielders, including in game, which is not natural to him, but if he can get it right, we can be really effective in that area. Yesterday Gana coming off the bench really helped, and we can potentially get more out of him if he isn't playing 90 minutes each game.

Its actually a great point mate and i think you've given a great example on the Moneyball analogy - of the point i was trying to make.

Another thing that i was really pleased with yesterday is that we could go to the bench and reach out and bring Idrissa and Garner on to influence and change the game dynamic. If it was this time last year we would have been flogging a midfield three over the course of the next 10 games and then heading into the Xmas schedule.

I think the depth is really important, not so much now as we will squabble on who deserves to start - but come Xmas and New year - when the schedule hits and injuries and suspensions mount- the depth of the squad is gong to be telling. If you remember last year our form flatlined from Xmas to March - for my money because the squad was to light and we flogged them every game. It was only after the International break in March did we look competitive gain.

Though we may have the same numbers - we have more live squad options to play, change things and more balanced squad to contribute - if we can rectify that Xmas to March form its a huge enabler and i think we've added more depth strategically with that in mind.

We will need all the players in my opinion. Until then its a duke out for me on who deserves the shirt, by bringing home points.

 

[knowing your history]

4 points from two games since hes come back into the team in a deeper role.

The absolute conundrum to many of the opinions expressed on here is statistically - we get far more point when he plays then when he doesn't.

We haven't won a game in the league since Lampard was sacked without him in the team - that's coming up on two years.

It depends who you play really. He was an unused sub at Villa (surprisingly) but would his presence really have impacted much given how good their midfield is now. He started v Brighton and Spurs and was really poor in both.

Last season he was injured for many of the tougher games home and away.

Then left on the bench for the next two prem games so I'm surprised he's back in the start but I don't believe it will be a long term selection with the strength in depth at CM now.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

He’s just so slow and Mangala was having to do the work of 2 yesterday.

 

[Toffe3m4n]

I've mentioned it a little above, but this is the core of Moneyball. Often people think moneyball is buying young foreign players (often for big money). Moneyball is really about taking decisions that may look strange, but give you statistically better outcomes.


Like imagine that scene with the scouts. People saying "he can't pass" "he's 33" "he's lumbered" "his technique is bad" and Brad Pitt saying "we win 57% more points with him in the team" (that's a made up number but you get my gist). For whatever reason, he clearly makes a difference.

My own view, is Dyche will probably have to rotate his midfielders, including in game, which is not natural to him, but if he can get it right, we can be really effective in that area. Yesterday Gana coming off the bench really helped, and we can potentially get more out of him if he isn't playing 90 minutes each game.

I noted last season that some of Gana's most impactful performances actually came off the bench. Ditto Gomes.

It's a part of the game that we definitely don't give that much airtime to, or generally understand that much about based on the more intricate details of player performance.

 

[Neiler]

I noted last season that some of Gana's most impactful performances actually came off the bench. Ditto Gomes.

It's a part of the game that we definitely don't give that much airtime to, or generally understand that much about based on the more intricate details of player performance.

In general i think most people who watch, comment or write about football dont acknowledge the game has changed mate.

People get to hung up on the starting 11 and whose in it - as being the best.

That's not the case anymore, its a squad game, its about the options on your bench and how you use the five chances to influence.

In a lot of sports now you don't start with your best team, you finish with it.

I think that change in the game and is sport in general really goes unacknowledged by most fans and social media when it comes to PL football.

Largely the starting 11, isn't as relevant or indicative of what it once was, yet that psychology is ingrained in comment and culture.

 

[Joey66]

He’s just so slow and Mangala was having to do the work of 2 yesterday.

Breathing out of his backside & he never got substituted ?

 

[roy vernon]

Good athlete, very limited footballer at this level.

 

[pfim]

He’s just so slow and Mangala was having to do the work of 2 yesterday.

I think it's a bit of the opposite, at least off the ball. Doucoure has clearly been told to stay back and provide cover, and allow Mangala to get on the ball and make things happen. Doucoure has been doing much of the running and covering. I think for the most part it has worked, even though Doucoure is allergic to the ball. I think Mangala and Garner would be a good pair as well.

 

[ClausThomsen]

I've mentioned it a little above, but this is the core of Moneyball. Often people think moneyball is buying young foreign players (often for big money). Moneyball is really about taking decisions that may look strange, but give you statistically better outcomes.

Like imagine that scene with the scouts. People saying "he can't pass" "he's 33" "he's lumbered" "his technique is bad" and Brad Pitt saying "we win 57% more points with him in the team" (that's a made up number but you get my gist). For whatever reason, he clearly makes a difference.

My own view, is Dyche will probably have to rotate his midfielders, including in game, which is not natural to him, but if he can get it right, we can be really effective in that area. Yesterday Gana coming off the bench really helped, and we can potentially get more out of him if he isn't playing 90 minutes each game.

There's a danger of false equivalence though. Football isn't played from the repeated positions and scenarios of sports such as baseball. A percentage increase in points may be there if you look for it but unless you can repeat those same games without Doucore then it's very difficult to seriously argue he's definitely the cause. You can however point to obvious weaknesses or strengths in his performances.

There's also a legitimate concern that you're hitting a glass ceiling with limited players like Doucore or Gueye in and around the first team. They're both players who are fading physically and I'd imagine are only going to struggle at top flight level going forward.

Not sure you can use Brad Pitt and a made up number to show he clearly makes a difference that is statistically significant. A big reason the 'Moneyball' Oakland team was successful is that they had traditional star players in that team and the whole Moneyball legend is fairly exaggerated on the back of a narratively unreliable movie that ignores a lot of facts in favour of dramatic license.

Taking into account statistical data as part of scouting a player is nothing new. They're a useful tool to identify a player worth looking at but not something to base a decision on.

 

[Damo_1878]

That midfield performance first half yesterday had me literally like that for 46 minutes: