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Ademola Lookman

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Lanolin said:
I know what you’re saying and you may be right, but the fact that 3 (very) different managers haven’t given him PL starts suggests that he may be lacking something, whether it’s physical or mental.
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I understand that view I just don't get how for example Bolasie gets a run of 10 straight starts and Lookman can barely get a single one and then this year same thing with him and Bernard. I've seen nothing to suggest he's better than them but maybe we should find out at some point.

A good manager would find out what kind of talent is at his disposal and it doesn't look like any of our managers have done that with Lookman which to my original point is a terrible job.
 
TheBigIguana said:
I understand that view I just don't get how for example Bolasie gets a run of 10 straight starts and Lookman can barely get a single one and then this year same thing with him and Bernard. I've seen nothing to suggest he's better than them but maybe we should find out at some point.

A good manager would find out what kind of talent is at his disposal and it doesn't look like any of our managers have done that with Lookman which to my original point is a terrible job.
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Obviously we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes but you have to earn starts at this level. We don’t just give everyone a go to see whether they’ve got it, you have to make the manager pick you. Lookman has failed to impress 3 managers now. It definitely could be bad management by all 3 of them, I’m not ruling that out, but it seems a bit weird to assume that’s what it is I think. The more logical answer is that it’s him not everyone else, but I suppose time will tell.
 
Lanolin said:
Obviously we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes but you have to earn starts at this level. We don’t just give everyone a go to see whether they’ve got it, you have to make the manager pick you. Lookman has failed to impress 3 managers now. It definitely could be bad management by all 3 of them, I’m not ruling that out, but it seems a bit weird to assume that’s what it is I think. The more logical answer is that it’s him not everyone else, but I suppose time will tell.
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What I get stuck up on is he went to RBL and showed him some faith gave him chances and let him fail without hooking him out of the team and he responded with 5 goals and 4 assists in 11 games. That is in a league that is at least close to the level the Premier League offers. We've seen that done the opposite by making him a bit part player and dropping him after one start. We have Vlasic in a very similar situation and I fear it will end the same way. At some point we are going to stop attracting talented young players if we keep this up. Spurs are second in the league because they signed and developed younger talents like Alli, Eriksen, Son and others. It is a viable way for us to maybe compete so we can't really afford to throw the option to do it away through bad management.
 
TheBigIguana said:
What I get stuck up on is he went to RBL and showed him some faith gave him chances and let him fail without hooking him out of the team and he responded with 5 goals and 4 assists in 11 games. That is in a league that is at least close to the level the Premier League offers. We've seen that done the opposite by making him a bit part player and dropping him after one start. We have Vlasic in a very similar situation and I fear it will end the same way. At some point we are going to stop attracting talented young players if we keep this up. Spurs are second in the league because they signed and developed younger talents like Alli, Eriksen, Son and others. It is a viable way for us to maybe compete so we can't really afford to throw the option to do it away through bad management.
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Bundesliga tends to be more forgiving though which make it easier, cos it's normal for most teams to have a group of younger players. A lot of developing and growth of players goes on in the league, which is by necessity, many teams generally have less money, so they need to have that patience and development element to their squads.

Whatever issues Lookman is having, it'd happen if he was at Spurs too by the way, it's not an Everton thing, it's just how it is, it's tough in the PL! Less forgiveness, less room for error . Those players at Spurs you mention are special talents. Lookman is clearly a talented young players, but Eriksen for instance is elite - truly specual. And Son had 4 Bundesliga seasons under his belt (and 2 CL campaigns) when he went to Spurs, hitting double figures in goals in 3 of those 4. He was no rough diamond or prospect, he was already an established first team star.
 
Borussin said:
Bundesliga tends to be more forgiving though which make it easier, cos it's normal for most teams to have a group of younger players. A lot of developing and growth of players goes on in the league, which is by necessity, many teams generally have less money, so they need to have that patience and development element to their squads.

Whatever issues Lookman is having, it'd happen if he was at Spurs too by the way, it's not an Everton thing, it's just how it is, it's tough in the PL! Less forgiveness, less room for error . Those players at Spurs you mention are special talents. Lookman is clearly a talented young players, but Eriksen for instance is elite - truly specual. And Son had 4 Bundesliga seasons under his belt (and 2 CL campaigns) when he went to Spurs, hitting double figures in goals in 3 of those 4. He was no rough diamond or prospect, he was already an established first team star.
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My point about Spurs is more that they bought youngish players generally and let them grow into the team they are now. Obviously they were blessed with Kane being their youth player who turned into a top 5 striker world wide. Maybe Lookman would struggle there but I look at how they handled Winks for example who was by no means good the first few times he played but he was given continuous chances and he really has turned his game up a notch now. We did that with Davies but more by necessity than wanting to do it and I feel he has shown some improvement this season.
 

TheBigIguana said:
What I get stuck up on is he went to RBL and showed him some faith gave him chances and let him fail without hooking him out of the team and he responded with 5 goals and 4 assists in 11 games. That is in a league that is at least close to the level the Premier League offers. We've seen that done the opposite by making him a bit part player and dropping him after one start. We have Vlasic in a very similar situation and I fear it will end the same way. At some point we are going to stop attracting talented young players if we keep this up. Spurs are second in the league because they signed and developed younger talents like Alli, Eriksen, Son and others. It is a viable way for us to maybe compete so we can't really afford to throw the option to do it away through bad management.
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That’s not really true though. He was at Leipzig for half a season and he only started 7 games, only finishing 2 of them. The idea that they just put him straight into the side and watched him flourish is a myth, for a time it looked the loan was a failure as he went 6 games without playing more than 45 minutes and didn’t even get off the bench in 3 of them. Then he scored 3 and got a couple of assists in their last 2 games and it put a totally different complexion on it.

The quality of the spurs players you’re talking about is much higher so it’s not a fair comparison. Saying they gave chances to those players is like saying we gave chances to Richarlison and Pickford.
 
Lanolin said:
That’s not really true though. He was at Leipzig for half a season and he only started 7 games, only finishing 2 of them. The idea that they just put him straight into the side and watched him flourish is a myth, for a time it looked the loan was a failure as he went 6 games without playing more than 45 minutes and didn’t even get off the bench in 3 of them. Then he scored 3 and got a couple of assists in their last 2 games and it put a totally different complexion on it.

The quality of the spurs players you’re talking about is much higher so it’s not a fair comparison. Saying they gave chances to those players is like saying we gave chances to Richarlison and Pickford.
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The point is when he did produce he got the chance. Sets up the winning goal after a less than inspiring effort from everyone else vs Palace and doesn't get a start. Comes on and tears City apart and presumably was dropped for Spurs injury or not. I don't know for sure but I'd bet he's started less than 7 games for Everton so acting like 7 starts in a half a season isn't more beneficial than what we've given him isn't true either.

My point with Spurs is they have the model we can closest follow. If Lookman turns out good it may hurt our reputation to have been unable to maximize that. Spurs have taken talents like Alli, Eriksen and Kane, none of which had played at the level they're at before Spurs, and turned them into top class players. Hopefully that is what we aim to do with players like Richarlison and Pickford but never giving a young, promising player a real shot isn't good for doing that.
 
TheBigIguana said:
The point is when he did produce he got the chance. Sets up the winning goal after a less than inspiring effort from everyone else vs Palace and doesn't get a start. Comes on and tears City apart and presumably was dropped for Spurs injury or not. I don't know for sure but I'd bet he's started less than 7 games for Everton so acting like 7 starts in a half a season isn't more beneficial than what we've given him isn't true either.

My point with Spurs is they have the model we can closest follow. If Lookman turns out good it may hurt our reputation to have been unable to maximize that. Spurs have taken talents like Alli, Eriksen and Kane, none of which had played at the level they're at before Spurs, and turned them into top class players. Hopefully that is what we aim to do with players like Richarlison and Pickford but never giving a young, promising player a real shot isn't good for doing that.
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Well no that wasn’t really your point because you said they let him fail without taking him out, now you’re saying they just let him stay in when he did well.

There’s more to football than just whether you skin a couple of players when you come in with fresh legs against a team that’s 2 up and cruising. If silva doesn’t think he can do the job he wants from his wide players then he won’t pick him. It’s up to Lookman to show he should be in the side, and 2 years after joining he looks no closer to doing that than when he came. Maybe 3 managers have all been unfair to him, or maybe he’s just not that good. I honestly don’t know, but I’m not a fan of the idea of trial by fan base where we just give everyone the fans like 10 games so they can see whether or not they agree with the manager.
 
Lanolin said:
Well no that wasn’t really your point because you said they let him fail without taking him out, now you’re saying they just let him stay in when he did well.

There’s more to football than just whether you skin a couple of players when you come in with fresh legs against a team that’s 2 up and cruising. If silva doesn’t think he can do the job he wants from his wide players then he won’t pick him. It’s up to Lookman to show he should be in the side, and 2 years after joining he looks no closer to doing that than when he came. Maybe 3 managers have all been unfair to him, or maybe he’s just not that good. I honestly don’t know, but I’m not a fan of the idea of trial by fan base where we just give everyone the fans like 10 games so they can see whether or not they agree with the manager.
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Two of the managers have been abject failures and the third has a long way to go to not end up in the same pile. The fans aren't always right but I'm far from admitting that those three have a good grasp of good football management. Last season we got basically zero production from wide players and spent a lot of time playing DCL and Gylfi clearly out of position while Lookman sat. This year the production has only picked up slightly and he still doesn't get a chance. Yet when he does at Leipzig he produces.

And regarding his time at Leipzig what I'm trying to say is he got more than one opportunity. He was in the squad every week and only didn't feature in some capacity 3 times. He started half of the games. Do you know how many starts he has had in all competitions at Everton in his 18 months with the club? 9. It's ridiculous to claim he has gotten a chance or that he can't do it from the start because realistically 1 start every 2 months isn't going to be enough to show that either way.

Edit: I left out a League Cup game. He has 10 starts.
 

Zatara said:
World class Walcott has 6 in 30 for us.

He's hit double figures twice in the prem in his entire career.

Let that sink in...
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yeah and he is a winger... he has 75 in in 324 games. Before Messi and Ronaldo came along those figures would have been brilliant.

Everytime Lookman has been given a chance he has failed so far
 

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