Ageing squad

[billycopper]

Honestly if you're suggesting our good results had anything to do with Neville being at CM then I'd have to disagree. He was often there alongside Heitinga and I'd say it was one of the worst parts of the 4-2-3-1. We lacked any kind of guile in that area in possession. I'd rather see Fellaini over either of those two at CM/DM and anyone who disagrees must surely underrate Felli.

That's not to say Nev is bad at CM/DM from a defensive standpoint. Not at all; he'll do a defensive job wherever you put him. But in the modern game you expect both fullbacks and defensive midfielders to be good on the ball and comfortable going forward. Fellaini, Baines and Coleman fit this bill, but Neville does not.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Heitinga goes walkabout, whereas Nev is disciplined and is happy to do the less glamourous stuff. His teammates can have confidence going forward, knowing that Captain Pip is looking after the shop. Phil closes down better than anyone else in that position. He's not there to provide guile or to start off attacks. He's there to protect the defence. I like Fellaini a lot but he's possibly more lumbering than Neville. He somehow doesn't seem to cover as much ground.

I'd have Fellaini slightly advanced of Nev, no problem. In the pecking order Heitinga is probably fourth behind Rodwell as far as defensive midfielders are concerned IMO.

 

[RFUS]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Heitinga goes walkabout, whereas Nev is disciplined and is happy to do the less glamourous stuff. His teammates can have confidence going forward, knowing that Captain Pip is looking after the shop. Phil closes down better than anyone else in that position. He's not there to provide guile or to start off attacks. He's there to protect the defence. I like Fellaini a lot but he's possibly more lumbering than Neville. He somehow doesn't seem to cover as much ground.

I'd have Fellaini slightly advanced of Nev, no problem. In the pecking order Heitinga is probably fourth behind Rodwell as far as defensive midfielders are concerned IMO.

I think Heitinga is a capable DM and I'd probably have him there over Nev simply because Heitinga is more comfortable on the ball.

I think you're definitely underrating Felli though. Severely. Fellaini is an absolute monster at defensive mid and I cannot understand how anyone can think Neville is better there.

I'm not saying defensively Neville isn't good there, but by putting someone who does nothing but defend into midfield you're really limiting your options for me. And weren't you the one saying Fellaini should be looking to get forward more and score more? Should Neville now, too? Or do you think a CM duo of Fellaini and Neville is a good one? It screams negative to me, like. Lucas/Poulsen-esque.

 

[Woolly Blue]

Neville as a footballer is very average at best.

So was Dave Watson.

 

[Bigmaclad]

Fellaini can't step over like Phil Neville. Sell him ffs.

 

[RFUS]

Fellaini can't step over like Phil Neville. Sell him ffs.

[video=youtube;aZvv-oHdIaw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZvv-oHdIaw[/video]

 

[Bigmaclad]

[video=youtube;aZvv-oHdIaw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZvv-oHdIaw[/video]

That's not a stepover, GET NEV ON!

 

[billycopper]

I think Heitinga is a capable DM and I'd probably have him there over Nev simply because Heitinga is more comfortable on the ball.

I think you're definitely underrating Felli though. Severely. Fellaini is an absolute monster at defensive mid and I cannot understand how anyone can think Neville is better there.

I'm not saying defensively Neville isn't good there, but by putting someone who does nothing but defend into midfield you're really limiting your options for me. And weren't you the one saying Fellaini should be looking to get forward more and score more? Should Neville now, too? Or do you think a CM duo of Fellaini and Neville is a good one? It screams negative to me, like. Lucas/Poulsen-esque.

Heitinga has no discipline whatsoever. He'll get up with the striker when he's supposed to be playing defensive midfield, he'll give away petulant freekicks and he has no awareness of the runs that the opposition are making. He's a liability.

Maybe Neville's experience is the difference? Fellaini is an excellent player and technically better than Pip, but he seems like he's got his hands full, whereas Neville appears to be more on top of things.

I disagree that we limit ourselves having a specialised anchor. Carsley was just that. If someone will do that job well, then other players don't need to defend as much. I wouldn't have Nev in the side instead of Fellaini. I'd have him in there as well as him. Maraoune could get forward more if Nev has his back. Stats-wise, Lucas made more successful tackles than anyone else last season, so I'm surprised that Dalglish appears to find him surplus to requirements. With him protecting the defence, Gerrard, Henderson and Adam could get forward with more abandon.

 

[Rhino1]

We have the following starters who are approaching or past 30 years old;

Neville -- 2 yars left ?
Distin -- 2 years left ?
Cahill -- 2 years left ?
Howard -- 4 years left ?
Arteta -- 4 years left ?
Jagielka -- 5 years left ?
Saha -- 1 year left ?

We also have these players who aren't going to take us too far for various reasons;

Anichebe -- Useless
Yobo -- Should have been sold for a reduced fee
Yakubu -- Injury has possibly finished him in the premiership
Bilyaletdinov -- I'm going to admit now that he wont make it
Heitinga -- Very epensive benchwarmer

So essentially we have up to 12 players whose resale values are now (or soon will be) sinking like a stone in a deep dark pond.

I can see Fellaini / Barkley / Rodwell potentially covering any midfield losses over the coming seasons....although we have potentially massive issues in central defence and attack.

I've said the same thing for the past 3 seasons, some of these players should have been moved on and young replacements brought in.


One thing that is worth thinking about, clubs will soon only be able to spend what they have generated in income.....if that's the case how many clubs will want to take ageing players off our hands rather than signing up and coming youth ?


David Moyes has always been a top manager but is he too stubborn to sell some of his old favourites ? I dont believe he can go begging for money from the board when he could have and possibly should have been offloading players over the past couple of years.

The Lescott money now seems like it has been spent on 2 bench warmers and an ageing centre back. It certainly will be interesting to see what happens at the end of this coming season when Saha surely will go as his contract will have finished....we'll potentially be left with Beckford as the only 'real' forward in the squad.


If this was a business outside of the sporting world then what would happen if there was half of your workforce coming up to retirement age / not good enough ?

I do think our squad is aging beyond belief. Six of our first 11 are over 30 (or 29). A lot of the younger players are stale... Heitinga, Billy & I'd love us to get Yakubu (28) and Yobo (30) off the books as soon as the possible. We need to bring the age of the team right now.

 

[billycopper]

I do think our squad is aging beyond belief. Six of our first 11 are over 30 (or 29). A lot of the younger players are stale... Heitinga, Billy & I'd love us to get Yakubu (28) and Yobo (30) off the books as soon as the possible. We need to bring the age of the team right now.

I'd be wary of bringing in players like Barton, Bellamy and Donovan, who are in their late twenties. The situation is manageable at the moment, but I wouldn't want to worsen it. Ideally we'd recruit more players in the age range of Beckford, Baines and Bily. There's too much of a gap between the likes of Saha and Anichebe, Distin and Duffy and Cahill and Baxter, as examples.

 

[RFUS]

Heitinga has no discipline whatsoever. He'll get up with the striker when he's supposed to be playing defensive midfield, he'll give away petulant freekicks and he has no awareness of the runs that the opposition are making. He's a liability.

Maybe Neville's experience is the difference? Fellaini is an excellent player and technically better than Pip, but he seems like he's got his hands full, whereas Neville appears to be more on top of things.

I disagree that we limit ourselves having a specialised anchor. Carsley was just that. If someone will do that job well, then other players don't need to defend as much. I wouldn't have Nev in the side instead of Fellaini. I'd have him in there as well as him. Maraoune could get forward more if Nev has his back. Stats-wise, Lucas made more successful tackles than anyone else last season, so I'm surprised that Dalglish appears to find him surplus to requirements. With him protecting the defence, Gerrard, Henderson and Adam could get forward with more abandon.

You're entitled to your opinion but a centre midfield duo of Fellaini and Neville, in my own opinion, is horrendous.

I'd want Fellaini to always be partnered with someone who will get further than him; someone with a creative touch. Osman or Arteta, Barton if he signed.

 

[billycopper]

It depends how we'd play it. We could have Arteta on the left, Barton/Barkley on the right, Osman behind Saha and Fella in front of Neville. We'd have enough creative touches there, wouldn't we?

Fellaini could be Gravesen, bossing play and dominating possession to Neville's Carsley.

 

[RFUS]

It depends how we'd play it. We could have Arteta on the left, Barton/Barkley on the right, Osman behind Saha and Fella in front of Neville. We'd have enough creative touches there, wouldn't we?

Fellaini could be Gravesen, bossing play and dominating possession to Neville's Carsley.

Fellaini's strengths lie in winning the ball though. In terms of who you want to keep possession you'd have to say Osman or Arteta. Always. I don't understand why you want Neville at DM so badly. When Fellaini plays DM he never leaves us wanting. You've just got to remember that when he gets a bit of form going, historically, he then gets injured. If he can play for most of a season I think he'll improve even further.

 

[billycopper]

Fellaini's strengths lie in winning the ball though. In terms of who you want to keep possession you'd have to say Osman or Arteta. Always. I don't understand why you want Neville at DM so badly. When Fellaini plays DM he never leaves us wanting. You've just got to remember that when he gets a bit of form going, historically, he then gets injured. If he can play for most of a season I think he'll improve even further.

I don't desperately want him there, but there's definitely value to it. If we hit on something where we suddenly don't concede as many goals, which is what has happened, then we need to look at it. We also need to look at how we fit everyone in. If Barkley is going to make right midfield his own, we need to look more closer at Coleman playing right back. For the balance of the side, with so many other players wanting to get forward, we need someone with no attacking ambitions to be disciplined and keep things tight.

 

[EFCNIK]

No you're an ageing squad. POW!

 

[RFUS]

I don't desperately want him there, but there's definitely value to it. If we hit on something where we suddenly don't concede as many goals, which is what has happened, then we need to look at it. We also need to look at how we fit everyone in. If Barkley is going to make right midfield his own, we need to look more closer at Coleman playing right back. For the balance of the side, with so many other players wanting to get forward, we need someone with no attacking ambitions to be disciplined and keep things tight.

I really do not want Barkley to make RM his own. He's clearly going to be a quality central player. However, if we don't sign a wide right player, that kind of Barkley/Coleman combo does seem to be the only way we can get width on the right flank.

I'm going to stop here though because this is turning into another one of your "more attack-minded fullbacks = more holes in defence" arguments. Which is nonsense, because as I've said a million times before, in our current system the RB gets forward too. They just don't do anything because 'they' are Hibbert or Neville -- terrible going forward.

Fellaini can sit if he needs to sit. Just because he's better going forward than Neville doesn't mean he's going to bomb up field every time we get the ball. Neville is limited as a player and especially as a midfielder, and if we didn't have better players for that position I'd accept him playing there. But we do. We have one of the finest defensive midfielders I've ever seen -- our most expensive ever signing -- and I want us to play him there. Moyes will, too -- he only played Neville/Heitinga there when Felli was injured. And rightly so.