Aiden McGeady

[Saint Domingo]

Yep, it's part of the deal with wingers. Someone like Pienaar has set the gold standard for wide players for the generation who came through during the Moyes era. Industrious, tracks play when it breaks down with him; which is good, but then he never actually was a winger, and Moyes never deployed them..or if he did he had them tucking inside a lot. I think there has to be a readjustment in expectation levels concerning the two operating wide of Naismith/Barkley.

Martinez has not done anything with wingers that Moyes hasn't done. Martinez's first choice wide pairing are Mirallas and Pienaar, both of whom like to cut inside, both Moyes players. We also saw Osman, Naismith, Barkley, and Lukaku deployed on the flanks last season ahead of playing Deulofeu and Mirallas together. You see this pattern everywhere, Arsenal never play Walcott and Chamberlain together, City dont pair Navas with another flyer. For whatever eeason there seems to be a trend for one creative wide player and one 'winger'.

Pienaar is more industruous than McGeady but controls the flow of the game better and defends better. Might be worth considering for a moment that against one of the best teams in the league we fielded 2 strikers, 2 widemen who dont track back, and two attacking full backs who dont really defend. The defense was therefore left to about four players.

I like McGeady for his moments of magic but he gas to be more consistent and doeant look ready to start. Pienaar is the superior player in attack and defense.

 

[davek]

Im not having this one Dave.

I love the way we play, I love Martinez and I think Moyes deserves respect for what put into what we are today.

The fact that I, and others, arent sold on McGeady isnt anything to do with what you mention. Its more to do with the fact that he seems almost determined to show his flashy feet everytime he receives the ball. Sometimes it comes off and it looks fantastic - his cut inside and ball for Naismith was fantastic v Chelsea. I seem to remember a trick and cross which set up Coleman for the winner v Cardiff last year. The lad undoubtedly has talent.

The issue is he seems quite poor at counter attacking. Take Kev as an example, when we counter attack he wants to do it at pace, to exploit the the space with his pace. McGeady doesnt do that. Ever. He receives the ball, stops, lets the opposition get behind the ball so he can then do a bit of skill with some flash footwork and beat his man. He did it so many times against Chelsea.

He's a work in progress no doubt, and I like what he brings to the team. I think though that every Evertonian has the right to not buy into a winger just because theyve mastered a step-over without being labelled a disciple of Moyes.

What we have to bear in mind is the attacking threat down that flank all told, not just McGeady's role in it. We are very strong on that side, and that, as far as I'm concerned, is the key point. So what if it's Coleman bombing on or McGeady's being more effective at times by darting inside and linking up with others as long as it gets the job done? I'd also take up your point about McGeady checking back on the ball: Martinez likes to have an opposition FB at a 2:1 disadvantage (this is his stated method), Coleman checks back too. It's no coincidence that both he and McGeady do this in order to wait for an overlap which they try to provide each other.

 

[Steve Wigan]

I actually was for a long, long time.

He did what was required of him keeping us up and solid. Then he stayed around four years too long.

Dave, I'm warming to you.......

 

[davek]

Martinez has not done anything with wingers that Moyes hasn't done. Martinez's first choice wide pairing are Mirallas and Pienaar, both of whom like to cut inside, both Moyes players. We also saw Osman, Naismith, Barkley, and Lukaku deployed on the flanks last season ahead of playing Deulofeu and Mirallas together. You see this pattern everywhere, Arsenal never play Walcott and Chamberlain together, City dont pair Navas with another flyer. For whatever eeason there seems to be a trend for one creative wide player and one 'winger'.

Pienaar is more industruous than McGeady but controls the flow of the game better and defends better. Might be worth considering for a moment that against one of the best teams in the league we fielded 2 strikers, 2 widemen who dont track back, and two attacking full backs who dont really defend. The defense was therefore left to about four players.

I like McGeady for his moments of magic but he gas to be more consistent and doeant look ready to start. Pienaar is the superior player in attack and defense.

The big difference is what he expects from wide players. When attacking play broke down Moyes wanted two solid banks of four getting back behind the ball (of course one of the middle four could be the one he played in behind the striker as part of a 4-4-1-1). But nevertheless he was happy for long spells to play Pienaar on one side and Osman on the other...he'd even play Naismith there or even Rodwell on a couple of occasions!. And there's a fundamental difference in the type of personnel Martinez has and is bringing in with regard this role. Deulofeu/Atsu to augment McGeady, Mirallas and Pienaar. I really dont think Moyes would have gone in that direction at Everton, and I think he's trying to move away from an era of wide players who battle away and maybe do their best work in areas that dont hurt the opposition. It's open to criticism, and I believe what Martinez is expecting in terms of wide players contributing to defensive workload was highlighted today by Kendall, who for my money was slightly critical of a defence exposed by players not funnelling back.

 

[mkrudden]

What we have to bear in mind is the attacking threat down that flank all told, not just McGeady's role in it. We are very strong on that side, and that, as far as I'm concerned, is the key point. So what if it's Coleman bombing on or McGeady's being more effective at times by darting inside and linking up with others as long as it gets the job done? I'd also take up your point about McGeady checking back on the ball: Martinez likes to have an opposition FB at a 2:1 disadvantage (this is his stated method), Coleman checks back too. It's no coincidence that both he and McGeady do this in order to wait for an overlap which they try to provide each other.

Well yeah, you're right there, however not when we are counter-attacking.

I take your point that RM likes to have over/under-lapping full-backs, however when the time is right we should be taking advantage of the space that already exists rather than stopping, waiting, over-lapping, just to create the space that we already had and lost. Kev M, Lukaku, Barkley, Deulofeu last season, all give/gave us that ability to defend deep in our half safe in the knowledge that if we won the ball we could break at pace. Lukaku v Arsenal last season, Lukaku for Naismith goal v Arsenal this season, Barkley v Newcastle away last season... examples of devastating counter-attacking football which few teams in the premier league can do. McGeady doesnt offer this. I think he's going to be far more consistently effective against the lesser teams who defend deep and therefore we need a bit of flair and ingenuity on the flanks.

There's no doubt that in a game against any opposition he will offer a trick or flick, a through-ball that will result in a chance or a goal as after all he has that bit of quality about him. My point is that people like Barkley/Kev can offer it against any opposition, regardless of quality, for prolonged periods of a game. Until McGeady proves he can do that, or further stops inhibiting us from counter-attacking as the above, I dont think its a problem that to some of us the jury is still out.

And that has nothing to do with David Moyes. Im still baffled that you even referenced that as a likely cause of an opinion alternative to yours!

 

[davek]

Well yeah, you're right there, however not when we are counter-attacking.

I take your point that RM likes to have over/under-lapping full-backs, however when the time is right we should be taking advantage of the space that already exists rather than stopping, waiting, over-lapping, just to create the space that we already had and lost. Kev M, Lukaku, Barkley, Deulofeu last season, all give/gave us that ability to defend deep in our half safe in the knowledge that if we won the ball we could break at pace. Lukaku v Arsenal last season, Lukaku for Naismith goal v Arsenal this season, Barkley v Newcastle away last season... examples of devastating counter-attacking football which few teams in the premier league can do. McGeady doesnt offer this. I think he's going to be far more consistently effective against the lesser teams who defend deep and therefore we need a bit of flair and ingenuity on the flanks.

There's no doubt that in a game against any opposition he will offer a trick or flick, a through-ball that will result in a chance or a goal as after all he has that bit of quality about him. My point is that people like Barkley/Kev can offer it against any opposition, regardless of quality, for prolonged periods of a game. Until McGeady proves he can do that, or further stops inhibiting us from counter-attacking as the above, I dont think its a problem that to some of us the jury is still out.

And that has nothing to do with David Moyes. Im still baffled that you even referenced that as a likely cause of an opinion alternative to yours!

But you're saying yourself that McGeady gets himself into a position and then checks back; Coleman does the same that side and no one would suggest Coleman isn't the instigator of counter attacks, so I'm puzzled at what point you're making there.

McGeady and Mirallas are different but the same: they attack defenders in different ways using different abilities (Mirallas has great acceleration; McGeady has great feet and great balance), but they are essentially the same when it comes to their ability to get behind the ball...same with Deulofeu last season, and it'll be the same with Atsu this season from the little I've seen of him.

Bottom line is that if you are to be critical of McGeady then you need to be critical (Pienaar aside) of all the other players we have on the books who will operate out wide this season. This is the manager's method. As I said initially, there's going to have to be a fundamental shift in the mindset of fans to grasp this evolution away from how we operated under Moyes.

 

[mkrudden]

But you're saying yourself that McGeady gets himself into a position and then checks back; Coleman does the same that side and no one would suggest Coleman isn't the instigator of counter attacks, so I'm puzzled at what point you're making there.

McGeady and Mirallas are different but the same: they attack defenders in different ways using different abilities (Mirallas has great acceleration; McGeady has great feet and great balance), but they are essentially the same when it comes to their ability to get behind the ball...same with Deulofeu last season, and it'll be the same with Atsu this season from the little I've seen of him.

Bottom line is that if you are to be critical of McGeady then you need to be critical (Pienaar aside) of all the other players we have on the books who will operate out wide this season. This is the manager's method. As I said initially, there's going to have to be a fundamental shift in the mindset of fans to grasp this evolution away from how we operated under Moyes.

I wouldnt say Coleman is a naturally a good counter-attacker because his position doesnt allow him to be. The space he has and runs into is usually generated from a quick switch of play, from left to right. I cant think of many instances where Coleman has or has been expected to turn defence into an attack because, being at right back, hes in the thick of it defensively. The players responsible for counter-attacking are those further forward, the Kev M's, the McGeadys, the Barkleys, The Lukaku's. When the ball gets to those players with space in front of them we want them to run into the space, not check back and wait for an over lapping run. Until McGeady does this consistently or at least improves his decision making in releasing the ball to those more accustomed to counter-attackers quicker he will never be a first choice player in my opinion.

And i repeat, this isnt a mind-set from the Moyes era as we have never counter-attacked under Moyes the way we did last season because we have never had the personnel. You keep repeating this point but - with respect - you dont back it up with substance via an example? If I want McGeady to be more piercing and positive when he is counter-attacking why would I be thinking of Moyes who seemed to be anti-pace and power in his methods?

 

[davek]

I wouldnt say Coleman is a naturally a good counter-attacker because his position doesnt allow him to be. The space he has and runs into is usually generated from a quick switch of play, from left to right. I cant think of many instances where Coleman has or has been expected to turn defence into an attack because, being at right back, hes in the thick of it defensively. The players responsible for counter-attacking are those further forward, the Kev M's, the McGeadys, the Barkleys, The Lukaku's. When the ball gets to those players with space in front of them we want them to run into the space, not check back and wait for an over lapping run. Until McGeady does this consistently or at least improves his decision making in releasing the ball to those more accustomed to counter-attackers quicker he will never be a first choice player in my opinion.

He's pushed high up the pitch. that's the way Martinez operates his FBs and why Coleman especially is such a potent attacking force. Surprised at that comment, tbh.

i repeat, this isnt a mind-set from the Moyes era as we have never counter-attacked under Moyes the way we did last season because we have never had the personnel. You keep repeating this point but - with respect - you dont back it up with substance via an example? If I want McGeady to be more piercing and positive when he is counter-attacking why would I be thinking of Moyes who seemed to be anti-pace and power in his methods?

I'm not following you here, it seems left field from what's been discussed here so far.

The major point that was being made is the overall philosophy Martinez has toward the targets he sets his players in wide positions. That was rammed home by McGeady revealing in interview exactly what that is. Never in a month of Sundays would those instructions have come from Moyes. You also pointed out that Moyes didn't have the personnel we have now out wide...for very good reason: they're the type of players you take the leash off and let loose on defences. Sure, he bought Mirallas...who then proceeded to get hamstring injury after hamstring injury early on through the unusual weight of effort he was being tasked with. Moyes simply wouldn't buy in those types of players in threes or fours as we have them right now.

 

[Paulie]

This thread is a good indication of who likes Aids and who doesn't.

 

[mkrudden]

He's pushed high up the pitch. that's the way Martinez operates his FBs and why Coleman especially is such a potent attacking force. Surprised at that comment, tbh.



I'm not following you here, it seems left field from what's been discussed here so far.

The major point that was being made is the overall philosophy Martinez has toward the targets he sets his players in wide positions. That was rammed home by McGeady revealing in interview exactly what that is. Never in a month of Sundays would those instructions have come from Moyes. You also pointed out that Moyes didn't have the personnel we have now out wide...for very good reason: they're the type of players you take the leash off and let loose on defences. Sure, he bought Mirallas...who then proceeded to get hamstring injury after hamstring injury early on through the unusual weight of effort he was being tasked with. Moyes simply wouldn't buy in those types of players in threes or fours as we have them right now.

Goodness me Dave...

The full-backs are pushed out wide when we have the ball. When we dont have possession they are tucked in as a conventional back 4 are. As soon as we have the ball the full backs get very wide, the centre backs split GB or JM drop deep to make a third CB. We all know this.

When we dont have the ball, and we retrieve it deep into our half with the opposition having committed multiple men forward we then look to counter-attack. The idea is that we get the ball forward, quickly, exposing the space that is a consequence of the opponents having so many men forward.

We look to players that can run into the space at pace. Repeating before, players like KM, Barkley, Lukaku etc...

My issue is that McGeady doesnt seem to have the fitness, pace or mentality to exploit that space because he constantly slows the game down so that he can use a jink to create the space that he's lost.

I think we are getting to the point where we should probably just agree to disagree if you dont at least understand the point im making - im not expecting you to agree, thats the beauty of this place.

Your second point I dont understand as you seem to still be saying that I and others are anti-McGeady because we loved Moyes and his tactics are stuck in his methods and philosophy. I dont get how youve come to that conclusion either but its one of them innit.

 

[davek]

Goodness me Dave...

The full-backs are pushed out wide when we have the ball. When we dont have possession they are tucked in as a conventional back 4 are. As soon as we have the ball the full backs get very wide, the centre backs split GB or JM drop deep to make a third CB. We all know this.

When we dont have the ball, and we retrieve it deep into our half with the opposition having committed multiple men forward we then look to counter-attack. The idea is that we get the ball forward, quickly, exposing the space that is a consequence of the opponents having so many men forward.

We look to players that can run into the space at pace. Repeating before, players like KM, Barkley, Lukaku etc...

My issue is that McGeady doesnt seem to have the fitness, pace or mentality to exploit that space because he constantly slows the game down so that he can use a jink to create the space that he's lost.

I think we are getting to the point where we should probably just agree to disagree if you dont at least understand the point im making - im not expecting you to agree, thats the beauty of this place.

Your second point I dont understand as you seem to still be saying that I and others are anti-McGeady because we loved Moyes and his tactics are stuck in his methods and philosophy. I dont get how youve come to that conclusion either but its one of them innit.

On Coleman:
"with the opposition having committed multiple men forward we then look to counter-attack. The idea is that we get the ball forward, quickly, exposing the space that is a consequence of the opponents having so many men forward. We look to players that can run into the space at pace."

...its not just pumped long for a Mirallas or Lukaku to chase down though is it, we carry the ball from deep under those circumstances too? But you dont think Coleman is part of that? You're dealing in abstractions on this, arguing from a position of what you wish to see there rather than the complicate reality of what's concretely happening.

On McGeady: I really think you fail to appreciate the complication that Coleman brings on that side. If Coleman were on the left do you think Mirallas would operate in the exact same fashion he does? I dont. To get the best out of the situation he'd have to look for more options than he does now. His first thought now is to carry the ball and keep on carrying it until he's stopped or can get a shot off. Baines is a less dynamic player than Coleman, certainly this stage of his career anyway. It'd be interesting to see what McGeady would do on the other side. I have a feeling he'd take far more of a responsibility - I've said it before: he looks to me as though he's trying to get out of Seamus' way half the time.

Overall on this though - I'd go back to the earlier point that you have to look at this in the round: we are very strong on that flank. It's working. Why look at it so critically when it's producing goals and assists? It's just nit picking for the sake of it.

 

[mkrudden]

On Coleman:
"with the opposition having committed multiple men forward we then look to counter-attack. The idea is that we get the ball forward, quickly, exposing the space that is a consequence of the opponents having so many men forward. We look to players that can run into the space at pace."

...its not just pumped long for a Mirallas or Lukaku to chase down though is it, we carry the ball from deep under those circumstances too? But you dont think Coleman is part of that? You're dealing in abstractions on this, arguing from a position of what you wish to see there rather than the complicate reality of what's concretely happening.

On McGeady: I really think you fail to appreciate the complication that Coleman brings on that side. If Coleman were on the left do you think Mirallas would operate in the exact same fashion he does? I dont. To get the best out of the situation he'd have to look for more options than he does now. His first thought now is to carry the ball and keep on carrying it until he's stopped or can get a shot off. Baines is a less dynamic player than Coleman, certainly this stage of his career anyway. It'd be interesting to see what McGeady would do on the other side. I have a feeling he'd take far more of a responsibility - I've said it before: he looks to me as though he's trying to get out of Seamus' way half the time.

Overall on this though - I'd go back to the earlier point that you have to look at this in the round: we are very strong on that flank. It's working. Why look at it so critically when it's producing goals and assists? It's just nit picking for the sake of it.

Ahhhh I think i do see what you mean now - you're saying that McGeady purposely slows the game down so that Coleman has the chance to be that counter-attacker overlapping? Its a little contradictory to your quotes from McGeady though isnt it? We need to get the ball forward quickly but "i'm" going to wait until a player who is, as an outfield player one of the players furthest back, to overlap me...? This is surely flawed and I cant see Martinez instructing such.

What I am saying is that I would like to see McGeady be that person who can be the one who is

"exposing the space that is a consequence of the opponents having so many men forward"

Someone who is one of these:

"We look to players that can run into the space at pace"

...because when we are counter-attacking he is, being further forward, far better placed to exploit the space which has been created than say Coleman is because as I mentioned earlier, Coleman is a defender primarily his job is to stay deep and compact when we arent in possession (and we obviously wont be if we are about to counter-attack)

If this isnt his game, then fine, but rather than slowing - waiting for Coleman, id like him to "get the ball forward, quickly, exposing the space" by feeding someone like Kev and Lukaku ahead of him probably on by a matter of yards, in the space. Im not quite sure where you got it from that I think we lump it forward...is that something you want to believe i said, rather than 'what's concretely happening'?

 

[davek]

Ahhhh I think i do see what you mean now - you're saying that McGeady purposely slows the game down so that Coleman has the chance to be that counter-attacker overlapping? Its a little contradictory to your quotes from McGeady though isnt it? We need to get the ball forward quickly but "i'm" going to wait until a player who is, as an outfield player one of the players furthest back, to overlap me...? This is surely flawed and I cant see Martinez instructing such.

What I am saying is that I would like to see McGeady be that person who can be the one who is

"exposing the space that is a consequence of the opponents having so many men forward"

Someone who is one of these:

"We look to players that can run into the space at pace"

...because when we are counter-attacking he is, being further forward, far better placed to exploit the space which has been created than say Coleman is because as I mentioned earlier, Coleman is a defender primarily his job is to stay deep and compact when we arent in possession (and we obviously wont be if we are about to counter-attack)

If this isnt his game, then fine, but rather than slowing - waiting for Coleman, id like him to "get the ball forward, quickly, exposing the space" by feeding someone like Kev and Lukaku ahead of him probably on by a matter of yards, in the space. Im not quite sure where you got it from that I think we lump it forward...is that something you want to believe i said, rather than 'what's concretely happening'?

This is getting tangled up needlessly. It's simple really (and why I've been trying to always make the overall point in each response): it's not broken - it's working. For some reason you see McGeady not doing the job Mirallas does on the other side and class that as a failure, and we should have him out of there if he doesn't convert himself into that type of player. How can that possibly be defended as an argument?

If we were stinking the place out down that side I'd say you'd have a point, but seeing as we're not then I find it hard to understand why you'd want to disrupt it.

 

[mkrudden]

This is getting tangled up needlessly. It's simple really (and why I've been trying to always make the overall point in each response): it's not broken - it's working. For some reason you see McGeady not doing the job Mirallas does on the other side and class that as a failure, and we should have him out of there if he doesn't convert himself into that type of player. How can that possibly be defended as an argument?

If we were stinking the place out down that side I'd say you'd have a point, but seeing as we're not then I find it hard to understand why you'd want to disrupt it.

Its not tangled at all, its just an opinion different to yours!

Hes got quality no doubt about it, but until he improves some aspects of his game, primarily his decision making as we have discussed, I dont think its a problem that the jury is still out according to some, me included.

 

[BoysInBlue]

Just scored for Ireland! Great goal too.