Are we going to end up with a pop gun attack?

[Goat]

Just going off the players we have (likely to be here) and those linked...

Ball Players -- Barkley / Sigurdsson
Direct wingers 'types' -- Lookman / Mirallas / Bolasie
Pacy Forwards -- Sandro / Dembele
Target Men -- Gray / Dolberg

Looking at Mirallas as a short term stop gap for Bolasie...that's quite a variety.

Dembele/Barkley -- Dolberg/Gray -- Sandro/Sigurdsson
​

That looks really exciting to me and still Lookman and Bolasie to add in. Cost is about the same as Lukaku's transfer fee.

We wont sign Dembele or Dolberg, neither are what we need.

 

[Tubey]

I get the point you're making but the game hasn't really 'moved on from goalscorers' has it?

I mean, you don't want someone who can only tap them in from 2 yards, but it's still hugely important to have someone in your team who can score 20 goals if you want to win things. Last years top 3 all have someone who scored at least 20 goals, so why do we think we don't need one?

To me, the key is to have someone you can rely on to put the ball in the net and have others in the team contributing regularly - they're not mutually exclusive, as the best teams show.

Well, if you look at Costa, Sanchez etc., they are footballers first and goalscorers second. They harass defenders, look for passes, drag players out of position.

Lukaku does little of that. He's a modern day goalhanger. The difference between him and the likes of Lineker is that they used to patrol around the six yard box and poach goals, whereas Lukaku hangs on the halfway line and looks for swift counters and the chance to run a defence. But in essence it's the same thing - a one trick pony kind of affair.

So pure goalscorers, regardless of how they do it, have faded out of the game. You have to have much more to your game to play at the top level.

 

[davek]

In an attacking/goals sense;
Pogba / Klaassen
Lingard / Sandro
Martial / Dembele
Rashford / Dolberg

It's doable.

That is assuming quite a bit!

At the moment it'd be:

Pogba / Klaassen
Lingard / Bolasie
Martial / Lookman/Mirallas
Rashford / Calvert-Lewin

!!!!!!!!

 

[davek]

Well, if you look at Costa, Sanchez etc., they are footballers first and goalscorers second. They harass defenders, look for passes, drag players out of position.

Lukaku does little of that. He's a modern day goalhanger. The difference between him and the likes of Lineker is that they used to patrol around the six yard box and poach goals, whereas Lukaku hangs on the halfway line and looks for swift counters and the chance to run a defence. But in essence it's the same thing - a one trick pony kind of affair.

So pure goalscorers, regardless of how they do it, have faded out of the game. You have to have much more to your game to play at the top level.

I think what @Lanolin is suggesting is that they are the 'main men'. They take on the weight and responsibility of snapping up chances and leading their team's line of attack.

 

[Zatara]

I get the point you're making but the game hasn't really 'moved on from goalscorers' has it?

I mean, you don't want someone who can only tap them in from 2 yards, but it's still hugely important to have someone in your team who can score 20 goals if you want to win things. Last years top 3 all have someone who scored at least 20 goals, so why do we think we don't need one?

To me, the key is to have someone you can rely on to put the ball in the net and have others in the team contributing regularly - they're not mutually exclusive, as the best teams show.

Fair points.

I honestly think Koeman is going to use the departure of Barkley and Lukaku to throw all the pieces up in the air and see where they land. This will be a season of mass experimentation in terms of players and style of play.

Me? I caution against too much tampering with the way we set up - especially with target men.

Three pronged attacks and False nines are fools gold.

I think @davek makes an interesting point about 'throwing the pieces in the air and see where they land'

When Ferguson paired two goalscorers in Cole and Yorke who knew if it would be effective, same with Sutton and Shearer.

I like the idea of Dembele,Dolberg,Sandro as they can all score long/short range. Theyre all good off the ball and any of them can potentially score 20 goals. 3 chances of someone hitting 20 is better than 1 chance and him getting crocked.

 

[Zatara]

We wont sign Dembele or Dolberg, neither are what we need.

Good players who score goals and can play in a 3

 

[Goat]

That is assuming quite a bit!

At the moment it'd be:

Pogba / Klaassen
Lingard / Bolasie
Martial / Lookman/Mirallas
Rashford / Calvert-Lewin

!!!!!!!!

Did we sell Lukaku and Barkley, wow, I must have missed that!!!

 

[davek]

Did we sell Lukaku and Barkley, wow, I must have missed that!!!

Tick tock....

 

[Goat]

Good players who score goals and can play in a 3

Dembele has just spent all season getting dropped for Scott freaking Sinclair and Plopberg scored less goals than Vinny J, swerve these 2 clowns and buy actual football players OVER the age of 25.

 

[Zatara]

Dembele has just spent all season getting dropped for Scott freaking Sinclair and Plopberg scored less goals than Vinny J, swerve these 2 clowns and buy actual football players OVER the age of 25.

That doesn't seem to be the remit for this summer.

 

[Zatara]

That is assuming quite a bit!

At the moment it'd be:

Pogba / Klaassen
Lingard / Bolasie
Martial / Lookman/Mirallas
Rashford / Calvert-Lewin

!!!!!!!!

Pogba / Klaassen DONE
Lingard / Sandro IMMINENT

Lets see who comes in next and I hope its not andre gray

 

[Goat]

That doesn't seem to be the remit for this summer.

Koeman has already voiced his concerns with the age of the squad, we have to many young players and to many old players, he will try and spread the age of the squad, the remit will be that.

 

[Lanolin]

Well, if you look at Costa, Sanchez etc., they are footballers first and goalscorers second. They harass defenders, look for passes, drag players out of position.

Lukaku does little of that. He's a modern day goalhanger. The difference between him and the likes of Lineker is that they used to patrol around the six yard box and poach goals, whereas Lukaku hangs on the halfway line and looks for swift counters and the chance to run a defence. But in essence it's the same thing - a one trick pony kind of affair.

So pure goalscorers, regardless of how they do it, have faded out of the game. You have to have much more to your game to play at the top level.

Yeah I understand (and agree) with the basis of the point, what I was getting is that just getting a couple of players who score 10 goals isn't going to get us anywhere. You still need someone who you kind of expect to score in most games, and I think what Dave is saying is that he's concerned we won't have that. I can see where he's coming from.

 

[PickeringBlue]

My point here is that Koeman is going to draw some very sharp conclusions about what he expects from a strike force and that will change completely the way we approach attacking.

There will be a methodological change next season, I'm convinced of it.

I tend to agree with this. My assessment was that his biggest annoyance last year was the speed at which we passed the ball and the amount of movement off the ball. This to me is why he didn't rate Barkley since IMO his weakest point is dwelling on the ball and a fear of making a pass that doesn't come off. I feel that last year he "put up" with Lukaku because he's a goal scorer. You simply can't argue with a guy who slots home 20+ goals.

That being said, we need a guy who can reliably score goals, at least 15-20 reliably. The last team to win the league without at least 1 top 5 goalscorer was Man United in 2000/01. Not suggesting we'll win the league, but having a top 5 goal scorer is a great predictor of success and if Lukaku goes I can't see anyone else we currently have coming close.

 

[Tubey]

Yeah I understand (and agree) with the basis of the point, what I was getting is that just getting a couple of players who score 10 goals isn't going to get us anywhere. You still need someone who you kind of expect to score in most games, and I think what Dave is saying is that he's concerned we won't have that. I can see where he's coming from.

Sure, but I'd take an attacking unit who you can expect to get 10-15 goals a season each, over a striker you can expect to get 30 on his own. For one simple reason - the variety in the attack then gets the whole team up the field and you get more goals from midfield, and you control a game better.

Don't get me wrong, if we could have "Bournemouth" Lukaku most weeks, he'd be sensational and I'd be urging Everton to throw £300k a week at him if need be, just get him to sign. But we don't - we don't even get close to that most weeks from Lukaku, and that's the issue.

My view, to use the analogy of this thread, is at the moment we have a "bazooka" attack - one big massive killer weapon that is too easy to dodge. I'd prefer a "machine gun" attack with bullets peppering in from all angles; much harder to avoid.